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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Meghan Murphy loses case against twitter

23 replies

EweSurname · 16/06/2019 10:33

The Meghan Murphy situation proves that Twitter is not a free speech zone

www.thepostmillennial.com/the-meghan-murphy-situation-proves-that-twitter-is-not-a-free-speech-zone/

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Daughterofmabel · 16/06/2019 10:43

Except if youre a man

TurboTeddy · 16/06/2019 11:09

Just been sent this link. The reasons for her ban are a clear attack on free speech so it surprises me that she lost her case in a US court.

www.gaystarnews.com/article/terf-writer-loses-lawsuit-against-twitter-will-remain-banned/#gs.jbmdly

Amazing that saying men aren't women is a problem but referring to someone as a T**R is just fine.

DpWm · 16/06/2019 11:33

Are there any articles about this that don't refer to her using a misogynistic term of abuse?

DpWm · 16/06/2019 11:35

I don't think she or anyone expected the case to win, but it definitely brought the situation to a much wider audience and most people agree with MM that it's not right.

DpWm · 16/06/2019 11:37

^Sorry, the article by Diana Davison doesn't use the t**f word.

happydappy2 · 16/06/2019 11:37

Thank goodness Meghan still writes Feminist Current-though I gather that has had funding pulled. This world is a sick joke at times.

SmallHaddockAndChips · 16/06/2019 11:43

And yet Twitter seems to be absolutely full of paedophiles! I honestly think the world has gone mad 😠

AncientLights · 16/06/2019 14:31

So it was heard in a US court? I was wondering how the right of Twitter to provide or withdraw a service at their own discretion sat alongside lone women being obliged to wax JY's balls. But different jurisdiction.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 16/06/2019 17:13

Wait a mo! I was reading the comments in the gaystarnews (more fool me) and after being mightily amused by one female poster arguing herself into ever decresin gcricles I came across this

In the UK, there are no "sex based rights". The fact that people are protected under the sex characteristic in EA2010 in their lived gender proves that. What sex based rights to you believe cis women have that cis men don't?

Now, the omwn I mentioned kept banging on about tautololgy but THIS comment frazzled me! Anyone care to give translation a go?

I think they might be GC, but I got lost in the middle...

CuriousaboutSamphire · 16/06/2019 17:17

Oh! It got worse with a Matthew person!

But at least he di get corrected

Their MOVEMENT initiated the gay rights movement in the 80s when Marsha P. Johnson was the first trans women to throw a rock through the Stonewall Inn and she was EXCLUDED and treated as if her act of courage and defiance was NOTHING

The 80s? And I thought Marsha being trans had been properly debunked...

Cookieflavoredbiscuit · 17/06/2019 13:34

Are there any articles about this that don't refer to her using a misogynistic term of abuse?

Here's one: (will it be clicky?)

www.thepostmillennial.com/the-meghan-murphy-situation-proves-that-twitter-is-not-a-free-speech-zone/

but apparently paedophilia is expressly permitted, as long as one doesn't get too carried away...

twitter.com/morphonios/status/1140442485925322754

EweSurname · 17/06/2019 14:45

Are there any articles about this that don't refer to her using a misogynistic term of abuse?

Yes, the one in the first post of the thread Grin

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EweSurname · 17/06/2019 14:47

Look who's revelling in this

Jessica Yaniv
‏*@trustednerd*
More Jessica Yaniv Retweeted Angela Sterritt
Can’t call me the M word. Another amazing win! ❤️💕

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RedToothBrush · 17/06/2019 15:11

Twitter is a privately owned platform.

That's the problem.

Freedom of speech only technically applies to public space.

This will be an issue going forward in many areas as places you regard as public might well be privately owned (this includes places as well as online platforms).

It means that in practice the law may end up with no jurisdiction in certain areas - I'm thinking things like your right to privacy.

It's something that's on the radar of dystopian thought and is being discussed on a governmental level in the UK as it becomes clear than nation states have less power and influence than corporations.

GirlDownUnder · 17/06/2019 15:27

Twitter is a privately owned platform.
That's the problem.
Freedom of speech only technically applies to public space.

Hi Red. What could this mean for MN? If this is a private platform, can we be compelled by law over language use for eg?

Thanks.

RedToothBrush · 17/06/2019 16:23

The law is different in the UK to the US

We do not have a right to free speech in the same way.

The 1st amendment prevents censorship by government but not private censorship. The US has a problem with Trump as he more than even most Republicans believes in private rather than public ownership of everything.

We do have stricter censorship laws in the first place. We have some rights to free speech under the Human Rights Act. But there are lots of exception to this which generally relate to security and abuse of others.

However since MN is a private platform it can set its own rights and code of conduct which you have to adhere to under its terms of service. These must fall inside the law, but can also include additional censorship as MNHQ see fit.

At present, it's owners support the general principle of freedom of speech as it is written into UK with relatively few additional conditions. And we are fortunate in this respect.

However in the future this could change. Especially if there is a change of ownership which doesn't share the same value of freedom of speech being a core principle of free debate on the site.

MN could also be at the mercy of the law changing as the government seek to restrict stuff said on foreign based platforms which are within the law where they are based but against British law.

Any censorship on the Internet is something we should be concerned about, even if in principle we think its a good idea.

The problem is you are giving enormous power to a group - which might not have much transparency or accountability - which might have its own particular prejudices which disadvantage certain groups. Women in particular are possibly at risk of this as they have less power in decision making over the formation and implemention of censorship for a variety of reasons and because of the nature of the technology and who is employed in the industry (see twitter being dominanted by woke tech dudes)

There is a growing movement in the UK and amongst politicians to support Internet censorship. Tbh, I think there's a lot of ignorance about how you achieve this and a lack of awareness if how people get around it, which means censorship could be somewhat counter productive in its ambition, instead pushing those who have nefarious content underground and harder to prosecute for breaking the law in other areas by being harder to trace whilst silencing voices which help to hold power to account, leading to more abuses of power.

That's why MN is such a good platform atm, because it recognises the importance of allowing women to talk on (largely) their own terms about issues which feature power imbalances in just about every walk if life you can think of.

But its incredibly fragile, and I worry that MN will fall foul of changes to the law as they have less resources to police their own sit in comparison to the social media giants. Any censorship laws are liable to be expensive for platform operators. Or put women at risk. I know one of the suggestions is about having to make people use their real name on social media. This would produce 'haves' and 'have nots' for social media and its power to connect and communicate as people would potentially be more at risk of harassment or doxxing. This puts women at a particular disadvantage - and given the idea is supposed to be about empowering women and stopping the disportionate amount of abuse they get online. It would simply silence a lot of women instead and disenfranchise them from public debate via another means. It then distorts society and power even further.

MN is quite a good foil to balance some of these issues, but that's also why its a target and a magnet for dickheads and hostile opinions.

There's too much of an idealisation that there is a magic button you can press that will solve online abuse. Or you can use a magic algorithm to remove certain things - thus only works to a degree and positive things can be mistakenly removed too.

Twitter and Facebook have got into some criticism in how they remove inappropriate content by human means as it can't be done by algorithms. It has been reported that they've out sourced it to third world countries and people have a job to see all manner of horrific things without training or access to councilling and there's little over sight over safeguarding who is in these jobs. It's low paid and regarded as low skill and long hours There's reports of workers with trauma from the job. And concerns that if you liked things like viewing child porn, it might well be your dream job...

Censorship as a means to solve the problem of online abuse is tackling the problem from the wrong angle for a lot of reasons.

There's a massive debate here and one which has many feminist issues and concerns.

Sorry I got a little carried away with this post!

GirlDownUnder · 18/06/2019 03:27

Shock thanks Red - that was amazing! And very helpful. I really appreciate your time spent and the knowledge you've shared, even if it's actually something else to worry about. I will look more.

Brew cheers

FannyCann · 18/06/2019 06:58

Ewe

Another one who's celebrating. What good company they keep.

Meghan Murphy loses case against twitter
MsJeminaPuddleduck · 18/06/2019 07:18

Really interesting post Red - thanks

quixote9 · 19/06/2019 05:37

It's hogwash to say private business don't have to respect free speech rights. If that were true, it would apply to all civil rights. Privately owned lunch counters can't boot out blacks. Civil rights would be meaningless if they only applied on public streets, the post office and the Department of Motor Vehicles.

The difference is that early on there was no attempt to apply the laws to the internet because all that nonsense wasn't serious. Now that they know it is, the problem is so huge and the businesses behind it so rich, that the only solution people can see is to run away and say "not my problem."

That will no doubt continue to be an acceptable attitude until middle class men get trampled by it.

quixote9 · 19/06/2019 05:54

Good post by Redtoothbrush. But I don't think the censorship issue is as difficult as she says. There's been plenty of censorship for as long as we've had free speech.

The general principle seems to be that if you're trying to communicate something, your speech gets to be free.

If you're trying to sell something, extract money from people, cheat them, lie with ulterior motives, or otherwise harm them (eg the old "yelling fire in a crowded theater for a prank") then you are not covered by free speech rights.

The enforcement in pre-internet days was slow, unwieldy, and spotty, but such as it was it depended on citizens' groups and the courts.

There's no reason that model couldn't work on the internet, especially with a sharper distinction of harmful crap versus free speech. We do have other choices besides setting up a Ministry of Truth and Silly Walks.

It would, however, mean blowing up the business model of every internet giant and probably the telcos. i.e. the most powerful people on the planet.

That's why it feels impossible.

quixote9 · 19/06/2019 05:55

And harmful crap obviously includes all the varieties of hate speech.

EweSurname · 19/06/2019 12:20

This probably deserves a thread of it's own. It's not been verified, so that's something to bear in mind

Twitter mysteriously suspended several accounts linked to women who say they are refugees fleeing abuse in Saudi Arabia

www.businessinsider.com/twitter-suspends-accounts-saudi-activist-runaways-2019-6?r=US&IR=T

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