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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Research into the experiences of those who have undergone conversion therapy in the UK

22 replies

hoodathunkit · 10/06/2019 09:39

Apologies if this has been posted before

Just sharing - emphasis mine

In July 2018, the National LGBT survey findings showed that 2% of LGBT+ respondents had undergone conversion therapies and a further 5% had been offered them. As part of the following LGBT Action Plan, we committed to ending the practice of conversion therapy in the UK.

As part of this commitment, we are working with Coventry University to fund research into the experiences of people who have been through efforts to change sexual orientation or gender identity. This research will help us better understand how to end these practices for good.

equalities.blog.gov.uk/2019/05/07/research-into-the-experiences-of-those-who-have-undergone-conversion-therapy-in-the-uk/

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hoodathunkit · 10/06/2019 09:57

also see

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20190609231904/www.pcsr.org.uk/letter-to-chairs-and-ceos-of-professional-bodies/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20190609231904/www.pcsr.org.uk/letter-to-chairs-and-ceos-of-professional-bodies/

The organisation in the above link, Psychotherapists and Counsellors for Social Responsibility is worthy of scrutiny in my opinion

more to follow

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hoodathunkit · 10/06/2019 10:27

PCSR’s 10th Psychotherapy and Politics Conference 11th May 2019
Saturday 11th May 2019 9.30 – 5.00
NCVO, Kings Cross, London

The event includes this:

Therapists and Equality Jocelyn Chaplin

Therapists, like everybody else, are living in a world driven insane by the imbalances of late Capitalism. We are ruled by the prevailing paradigm of ruthless competition in which one person or group must win while another loses, one is superior while another is inferior. People are primarily valued as consumers rather than as human beings. The idea of endless economic growth at any cost, targets for everything and life as a series of ladders, pushes us ever upwards to some imagined rich heaven, with no counterbalancing.

We are faced with the disastrous results every day in our professional as well as personal lives. Depression is on the increase as some people find that more material wealth doesn’t make them happy. For others social and economic ‘failure’ is experienced as their personal fault.

Many of us feel frustrated by the limitations of the work we do, whether it’s private or public. All too often we are simply holding people in desperate situations largely created by the external structures of society. Or we are helping others through ‘quick fixes’ to return to ‘normality’ and be good consumers and workers.

Instead, we need to go to the very root of the paradigm/model that underlies it all and replace it with an alternative one. This means moving from hierarchy, competition and even aspiration to equality, co-operation and satisfaction. We all have both paradigms deeply embedded in our conscious and unconscious minds. Noticing the many complex, often subtle, hierarchies within and outside us, without shaming or blaming ourselves or others, is a start. Then we can promote the equality model as the heart of what we do. It can be in relationships with clients/people, as well as in our more overtly political activism outside.

Jocelyn Chaplin is a Feminist, Anarchist, Integrative Psychotherapist in Private Practice. She co-founded The Serpent Institute with John Rowan in 1989 to train therapists in both Humanistic and Psychodynamic approaches within a framework of Natural Spirituality. Her books include ‘Feminist Counselling in Action’, ‘Love in an Age of Uncertainty’ and ‘Deep Equality’.

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20190415191510/www.pcsr.org.uk/author/bmillar/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20190415191510/www.pcsr.org.uk/author/bmillar/

I wondered whether any feminists here are familiar with feminist anarchist Jocelyn Chaplin?

I am asking as John Rowan, the co-founder of the Serpent Institute was a notorious promoter of neo-tantric sex cults. I have screen shots to prove it from his facebook page when he was still alive.

I also know someone who trained with John Rowan and her training included lectures on the clinical applications of sexual contact with therapy clients.

The Serpent Institute website is fascinating

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20190328041636/www.serpentinstitute.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20190328041636/www.serpentinstitute.com/

I have stuff to do, more later

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hoodathunkit · 10/06/2019 10:34

This thread on the Cult Education forum is fascinating and resonates with my personal experiences of the alleged cult apologist

Is Prof Andrew Samuels head of UKCP a cult apologist?

forum.culteducation.com/read.php?8,79233

Prof Samuels is the founder of PCSR

so much more to post, this will do for now

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hoodathunkit · 10/06/2019 10:35

for some reason links to the Cult Education forum need to be C&Pd otherwise they take you to the forum index

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thatdamnwoman · 10/06/2019 11:17

I did a course with Jocelyn at the Mary Ward Centre about 30 years ago: it was advertised as a female empowerment/ assertiveness course if I recall correctly, but turned out to be broader and more interesting than that, including a lot of stuff around goddesses. We walked down the road to the British Museum to see Inanna and Ishtar and various other female deities. I was struggling with what I now understand as chronic, long-term non-clinical depression and I found my contact with her helpful.

It was clear that she was focussed on spiritual and esoteric stuff and so as a rational atheist I struggled with some of it but I certainly experienced her as a feminist and supportive of the women in the group. There was nothing even vaguely inappropriate. I remember her fondly. We had some discussions that have stuck with me for 30 years. I might go and hear her speak. I imagine she must be in her 70s by now.

hoodathunkit · 10/06/2019 11:45

thatdamnwoman

That's really interesting.

I am unsurprised you found the course at the Mary Ward centre with Jocelyn interesting and helpful.

Women generally love to hear about the ancient goddesses of yore, especially when framed in such a way as to invite them to imagine their "inner goddess" - did Jocelyn talk about "awakening your inner goddess" or anything similar.

I am also unsurprised that you remember Inanna / Ishtar the ancient Babylonian whore goddess, who dubious persons within the "Divine Feminine" movement like to refer to because of her alleged (disputed) links to ancient temple prostitution.

Did she share her thoughts on "body psychotherapy" and the idea that memories of trauma are held in the body at a cellular level and can be "released" via massage, including sexual massage?

Maybe it was her dear friend and Serpent Institute co-founder the late John Rowan who held those views but kept them quiet from her?

If you are in touch with her could you please ask her to post here as I have a load of questions I would love to ask her

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hoodathunkit · 10/06/2019 11:48

Also, bell hooks, Naomi Wolf and various other feminists have promoted dangerous, exploitative neo-tantric sex cults and I doubt very much that they did so out of a wish to harm anyone.

That is the nature of cults.

It's all love and light and nourishing / awakening / stepping into your power / deep diving / conscious relationships etc. at least on the outside.

Scratch the surface and things are very concerning.

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thatdamnwoman · 10/06/2019 11:57

No, she didn't. Absolutely nothing of what you describe. No focus on sex and certainly nothing inappropriate. I made a couple of friends on that course and we were in touch for some years afterwards: never heard a negative word about Jocelyn from either of them.

BogglesGoggles · 10/06/2019 11:59

Ffs why do all of these things turn into far left echo chambers. Capitalism is a result and cause of individual empowerment and, while flawed, is the best economic system human beings have ever come up with. Millennial capitalism is now acting as a capitalist reformation, returning to principles of a wealth creation in order to do good, investment and consumer patterns are shifting to reflect this increased desired to do good with ones money. I appreciate that the 20th century represented a bit of a blip wothextreme utilitarianism on one side fighting against extrene individualism on the other. Utilitarian models have failed, the biggest communist and socialist systems have failed, the rest are on the demise. The intellectual war is over. Consequently people are moving on and the market it moving on. The older generation needs to let go as well. You are putting off a lot of liberal minded people who would haves lot to add to the discussion by spouting discredited nonsense.

thatdamnwoman · 10/06/2019 12:02

I'm not in touch with her but you can contact her via her email on the website, if it's still current.

www.serpentinstitute.com/about.asp

hoodathunkit · 10/06/2019 12:03

Re the late John Rowan

the links page to his website recommends a truly scary neo-tantric charlatan
(scroll down - if you click on the link in the way back machine it will take you to an archived version of the relevant website )

web.archive.org/web/20190505214101/www.johnrowan.org.uk/links/

The below obituary of Rowan in interesting

His Phd was from Middlesex University, an institute that has attracted much criticism in relation to cults and quackery. His Phd was for his work in relation to subpersonailties a concept familiar to anyone studying false memories, dissociative disorders and the current narratives re non-binary identities and transgender issues.

The authors are also very interesting people

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20180612140017/ahpb.org/index.php/john-rowan-obituary-and-appreciation/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20180612140017/ahpb.org/index.php/john-rowan-obituary-and-appreciation/

Just to add re Rowan, my friend who studied with him for some years told me that he was involved with a late neo-tantric cult leader called Barry Long and that married couples who were studying together with Rowan were separated when the women got involved in polyamorous relationships with Long, causing great distress to their husbands and families. It all sounded extremely dangerous, unboundaried and abusive to me.

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thatdamnwoman · 10/06/2019 12:04

Millennial capitalism is now acting as a capitalist reformation, returning to principles of a wealth creation in order to do good, investment and consumer patterns are shifting to reflect this increased desired to do good with ones money.

Evidence?

hoodathunkit · 10/06/2019 12:04

I'm not in touch with her but you can contact her via her email on the website, if it's still current.

Thanks I wouldn't want someone with her connections to have my email address no matter how naive and well meaning she might be

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hoodathunkit · 10/06/2019 12:06

Ffs why do all of these things turn into far left echo chambers

If you have studied this issue as much as I have you would understand that the name of the game is astroturfing extremes of left and right and pretty much any political movement and taking it to extremes.

Cause disunity and chaos is what it's all about - that and an attack on thinking and rationality

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hoodathunkit · 10/06/2019 12:13

Harm caused to women, children and vulnerable adults and various oppressed minorities are just collateral damage in the larger game

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hoodathunkit · 10/06/2019 12:18

Briefly, as running late again

Going back to the latter linked in my 2nd post

it says

"Sent to BACP, UKCP, BPC, BABCP, BPS Pink Therapy, COSRT and NCS

21 March 2019

Dear

We welcome the announcement that Dr Michael Brady has been appointed as the first National Adviser for LGBT+ Health, and that an Advisory Panel has also been appointed to focus on key issues for people who are LGBT+ “such as conversion therapy.” 1

There are no therapists on the Advisory Panel, a particularly striking omission for a group with an explicit focus on conversion therapy.

The Memorandum of Understanding on Conversion Therapy in the UK is an important document that represents many years of therapist engagement with this subject. We recognise our professional bodies’ commitment to this vital issue.

We urge the BACP, BABCP, BPC, BPS, COSRT, NCS, Pink Therapy and UKCP to join us in urgently contacting Penny Mordaunt, Minister for Women and Equalities, to ask why therapists have not been invited to join the panel.

Sincerely

Bea Millar

Chair, Psychotherapists and Counsellors for Social Responsibility

www.pcsr.org.uk"

I would like further clarification from the PCSR as to what kind of psychotherapists they think should be involved

Body psychotherapists who believe they can perform "genital dearmouring" via neo-Reichian massage? Therapists who have a background in hippy communes and revolutionary theatre and unboundaried abusive sex cults?

I really, really want to know

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hoodathunkit · 10/06/2019 12:50

From the website of psychotherapist Nick Totton (scroll down)

"I am also an active member and ex-chair of Psychotherapists and Counsellors for Social Responsibility, which aims to locate psychotherapy and counselling in its social context”

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20180805010625/homepages.3-c.coop/erthworks/nick.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20180805010625/homepages.3-c.coop/erthworks/nick.htm

Who is Nick Totton?

Could it be that he is yet another Neo-Reichian body psychotherapist who believes in massaging people’s genitals as a form of psychotherapy?

Sadly, according to the text and links in the above linked webpage it appears that this is exactly what he is

One wonders whether he is one of the psychotherapist that the PCSR would like to get involved in consultations about conversion therapy and gender identity?

Because let’s face it those consultations really do need more new age charlatans there to provide kool aid should the supplies run low.

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inspiralcarpet · 10/06/2019 16:17

"His Phd was for his work in relation to subpersonailties a concept familiar to anyone studying false memories, dissociative disorders and the current narratives re non-binary identities and transgender issues."

Hoodathunkit, I'm a regular here but namechange pretty much daily.

I hope you don't mind me raising this but I increasingly see you posting about the trans agenda and then throwing in references to disocciative identity disorders and false memories.

You generally come across to me as someone who is disparaging of the counselling/psychotherapy professions and if it's your agenda to spread that message then that's you're right.

But as someone who suffered with a disocciative disorder and later remembered abuse - which was then corroborated by both witness accounts and my social services records I find your stance on what you declare to be 'false memories' at odds with a feminist board.

In fact it seems to play right into a patriarchal narrative that females must be mad and imagining false abuse rather than that men have actually abused them.

Whatever you think of individual therapists (and I agree there are some bad ones around) you offend me regularly with your dismissal of dissociative disorders which are a genuinely recognised mental health condition recognised in DSMV.

I wonder if you ever consider survivors of sexual abuse when you continue to post in this way?

inspiralcarpet · 10/06/2019 16:22

that's your right.

hoodathunkit · 11/06/2019 10:01

inspiralcarpet

Thanks for your post

I am pushed for time today and just wanted you to know that I am not ignoring you

You raise a lot of issues in your post that will take me some time to reply to, however I look forward to sharing thoughts and experiences with you and see this as an opportunity to expose serious abuses against vulnerable people.

For the record I think that dissociation is an interesting phenomena linked to trauma and I know it is a real thing.

My problem lies with multiple personality disorder / dissociative identity disorder, a problematic and highly controversial diagnosis linked to the satanic panic.

When MPD was exposed as an iatrogenic condition used to commit insurance fraud on a massive scale, the charlatans promoting rebranded it as DID. At one level this is all about money, but I think there is more to it than that.

DID has received a lot of exposure as a fraudulent / iatrogenic condition and so a range of new dissociative disorders has been created to keep the revenue streams flowing.

The falsely accused families and alienated, brainwashed victims of the cruel pseudo-therapies are just collateral damage in these disgusting frauds.

I am extremely angry about multiple abuses against innocent people by disgusting charlatans and have, for some years, also been researching the connections between the transgender identity promoting quacks and the MPD/DID promoting quacks.

The connections and resonating themes are absolutely fascinating and I think should be exposed.

I have also been researching connections between MPD/DID/SRA promoting therapists and abusive sex cults.

I can understand why some feminists are going to be upset about this.

There is a long and horrible history of some elements within feminism promoting MPD/DID/SRA hoaxes.

There is also a long history of some feminists promoting abusive sex cults, very often from a misguided belief that they are empowering women.

Exploring the links and connections between abusive therapists who use coercive control to alienate vulnerable people (usually women) from their families and then to exploit them in horrific ways and sex cults that use the same modus operandi to alienate women and girls from their families and exploit them in systems of prostitution and pornography is going to create some cognitive dissonance but I find it very difficult to just do and say nothing while vulnerable people are abused.

You generally come across to me as someone who is disparaging of the counselling/psychotherapy professions and if it's your agenda to spread that message then that's you're right.

I believe that psychotherapy can be extremely helpful for some people. I know many people who have benefitted from good psychotherapy and I know that there are good therapists out there. I was once a passionate advocate for psychotherapy.

I reserve my criticism for psychotherapists who use quackery to abuse vulnerable people.

I am especially concerned about so called "body psychotherapists". There is a significant category crossover between body psychotherapists and abusive tantric sex cults that exploit vulnerable women (and sometimes men) in systems of prostitution and other sex work. Both body psychotherapists and cults claim that memories are trapped in the body at a cellular level and can be liberated via massage (usually including genital / anal massage).

This is a disgusting abuse of vulnerable people. Obviously.

Many of the quacks promoting MPD/DID either are body therapists or are friends and associates with such persons and endorse each other online and in real life. I can prove this. One senior promoter of MPD/DID/SRA is actually married to a neo-tantra teacher who works for a controversial "school of tantra" currently facing multiple allegations of rape and sexual assault.

But as someone who suffered with a disocciative disorder and later remembered abuse - which was then corroborated by both witness accounts and my social services records I find your stance on what you declare to be 'false memories' at odds with a feminist board.

I cannot comment on what did or did not happen to you, however we live in interesting times and it is common for the police and the social services to be trained in all kinds of deluded illogical weirdness and be awarded CPD credits for their time.

My medical records, at least the parts written by well meaning but misinformed professionals, and other written by quacks and charlatans, contain all kinds of errors and false information.

One of the most terrible aspects of the activities of the quacks and charlatans is that their victims are sometimes people who suffered real violations and abuses.

I would never say that someone has never been abused, however when people make claims of fantastical events involving mass sacrifice of babies, cannibalism, women used as "breeders" for satanic cults, etc. I struggle to believe that this is true. The main reason for my incredulity is that I have 1st hand experience of knowing women who have recovered false memories of incest and SRA from quack therapists. These women went on to genuinely believe that their families are paedophiles and satanists because of being on the receiving end of abusive therapy How can this be OK with anyone?

In fact it seems to play right into a patriarchal narrative that females must be mad and imagining false abuse rather than that men have actually abused them.

I would argue that many of these quacks and charlatans are men and that the MPD/DID diagnosis is one that infantilises women and thus ultimately plays into the patriarchy. This becomes especially evident when one examines the links to these quacks and cults involving paedophiles and sexual predators.

Also quite evident are links between some false memory cults, including some psychotherapy cults, and conspiracies to undermine women's reproductive rights.

These are subjects that I am very much looking forward to sharing with you, as I would love to hear your thoughts on the matter.

Whatever you think of individual therapists (and I agree there are some bad ones around) you offend me regularly with your dismissal of dissociative disorders which are a genuinely recognised mental health condition recognised in DSMV.

You are correct in pointing out that DID and other dissociative disorders are recognised in the DSM-V (the American diagnostic manual). You would also be correct if you pointed out that police, social workers and mental health professionals the world over are receiving CPD credits by being trained in how to deal with satanic ritual abuse and dissociative disorders.

However I would like to draw your attention to the fact that deluded, irrational, unscientific narratives about gender identity are also the subject of CPD accredited training courses for police, social workers and mental health professionals.

Here in the UK we use the The ICD-10 Classification of Mental and Behavioural Disorders, which states (scroll down)

"Dissociative and somatoform disorders, in relation to hysteria

The term "hysteria" has not been used in the title for any disorder in Chapter V(F) of ICD-10 because of its many and varied shades of meaning. Instead, "dissociative" has been preferred, to bring together disorders previously termed hysteria, of both dissociative and conversion types. This is largely because patients with the dissociative and conversion varieties often share a number of other characteristics, and in addition they frequently exhibit both varieties at the same or different times. It also seems reasonable to presume that the same (or very similar) psychological mechanisms are common to both types of symptoms.

There appears to be widespread international acceptance of the usefulness of grouping together several disorders with a predominantly physical or somatic mode of presentation under the term "somatoform". For the reasons already given, however, this new concept was not considered to be an adequate reason for separating amnesias and fugues from dissociative sensory and motor loss.
If multiple personality disorder (F44.81) does exist as something other than a culture-specific or even iatrogenic condition, then it is presumably best placed among the dissociative group."

Which is interesting as it places the dissociative disorders as somataform disorders (previously known as hysterical conversion disorders) which also provides some insight as to why there are connections between so called "body psychotherapists", neo-tantric cults and allegations of incest / SRA following massage treatments.

I have a lot more to say and to share on this issue and on other related issues.

I have no idea who you are and you do not know me. We have no way of challenging or validating each others personal narratives without exposing ourselves to online harassment.

With this in mind I suggest we proceed as follows

We avoid talking about our personal narratives and concentrate on the therapists concerned..

You believe that there are good therapists out there who work with dissociative disorders. It is entirely possible that you know about therapists I am unaware of.

I know about lots of abusive quacks, charlatans and predators.

I suggest that we share information about these therapists and take things from there.

If there are good therapists out there I would love to know about them.

I assume you would also be interested in learning about the links between the therapists and abusive cults yes?

Let us talk about the therapists and see what we turn up

How does that sound to you?

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inspiralcarpet · 11/06/2019 10:08

I’m at work and not really interested in engaging with you.

I’m a victim of sexual abuse, you’re a victim of abusive therapy.

I’ll respect your experience, please respect mine and others.

I don’t know if the dig about records being incorrect was aimed at me but you don’t strike me as someone with empathy for my experience.

Go well.

hoodathunkit · 11/06/2019 10:27

I am a survivor of child sexual abuse, sex trafficking, sexual abuse as an adult and abusive therapy.

I am saying that not to "trump" your experience as I have no idea who you are. Just telling you what I have endured.

If you have a diagnosis of a dissociative disorder I have no doubt that you have endured trauma in your life. I am very sorry for whatever abuses you have suffered.

Apologies if I sound lacking in empathy

This is hard for both of us I imagine

Both of us are going to view the other through the lens of our own subjective experiences which is why I suggested an exploration of the therapists concerned rather than our own experiences, which, however you look at it, at one level, will invalidate one another.

I have no argument with any survivor of abuse or abusive therapy, my argument is exclusively with the perpetrators

I am also very busy today and if you don't want to engage with this conversation I wish you well in your life and I hope that you find peace

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