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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

GC Gender Studies academics

70 replies

Doyoumind · 04/06/2019 15:14

I've been pondering this and wondered if anyone who knows more than me can answer.

I know of various vocal GC academics - philosphers, scientists, historians etc - because although I don't always get involved on these boards as much as on other MN boards I read them a lot and I use Twitter to keep an eye on what's going on.

I know of the likes of Sally Hines. IABU to think that out there in Gender and Women's Studies there must be some GC academics? Have I just missed them? Are they all 'TWAW' or are they there but unable to speak out?

TIA

OP posts:
Pota2 · 05/06/2019 16:37

twitter.com/pigsinspace3/status/1135992645292105729?s=21

Love this from Sister Outrider. The sheer idiocy of a bunch of white middle-class navel-gazers accusing anyone who disagrees with them of being, um, white and middle class. But they are SPECIAL of course so the normal rules don’t apply to them.

Pota2 · 05/06/2019 16:37

Agile sociology/gender studies. Similar field to Hines and Phipps.

StroppyWoman · 05/06/2019 17:25

Pota I got the impression that was what CCP was referring to in her tweet.

Pota2 · 05/06/2019 17:44

Aha. Thanks, that makes sense. Phipps and her ilk wildly dislike CCP. Difference is that CCP’s research potentially saves women’s lives whereas Phipps is saying that we shouldn’t lock up paedophiles....

DrG · 05/06/2019 18:52

Pota do you not think there is an element of ‘Kompromat’ here?

I do, it definitely serves the Patriarchy that we spend such effort engaging with the mind numbing TRA advocates and maidens.

Have weak and badly run Depts, allowed a couple of shitty hires a platform for their vogueish unevidenced narrative and then, in typical uni style, tried to reframe a cockup as an intentional and spectacular success?

Pota2 · 05/06/2019 20:07

DrG, yes, I agree. It’s like the emperor’s new clothes. But it’s more than just a couple of shitty hires- it’s endemic. Whole departments are being run by people who have little grasp on reality and whose research makes virtually no discernible difference to anyone’s life. I am thinking about that gender project for instance- there was a thread about it last year. They got 750k and they are proposing that sex should not be recorded on birth certificates. You couldn’t make it up but it’s obviously very lucrative for the universities.

TheAngryLlama · 05/06/2019 20:12

I find these people very distasteful. We shouldn’t be against trafficking because that’s racist? Warped, vile, loathsome. Why would you even begin to want to argue that?
There are some truly horrible people out there.

Goosefoot · 06/06/2019 02:58

They are natural oppressors

The problem with this shit is that everyone is a natural oppressor. Including A. Phipps. If I were feeling uncharitable I'd suggest that's why she wrote the book.

Goosefoot · 06/06/2019 03:03

We shouldn’t be against trafficking because that’s racist?

I almost feel that it's at least honest though. The fact now is that we are told leftists and progressives must support all pro-immigration policies because to do otherwise is racist. This is proved by Brexit and Trump.
The fact that movement of labour is a pillar of neoliberalism just as much as movement of jobs and capital goes unremarked. Someone has been quite successful in making the left forget that they once understood this, just as they understood free trade had serious problems.
It's really only an extension of that to say smuggling and trafficking are racist.

TheAngryLlama · 06/06/2019 05:54

Only if you are morally and ethically illiterate. Which is the most charitable explanation for these people. God alive what a world.

kesstrel · 06/06/2019 08:09

White women – even survivors of sexual violence – possess and express it too. It is possible that sexual violence might intensify it: since sexual assault and rape involve a loss of power and control, regaining this is crucial to successful recovery."

This made me remember Soul on Ice, the book published by the Black Panther Eldridge Cleaver in 1968, in which he admitted to raping white women as "an insurrectionary act". It took feminists to point out what was wrong with that attitude, and he later recanted. I wonder what Alison Phipps would say about it now? I feel like things are coming full circle.

DrG · 06/06/2019 14:59

Not on the same scale, thankfully, but it does all make me think of the absolute refusal of the left in the 1970s, to believe that the reports of genocide by the Khmer Rouge were true.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide_denial

They could not accept that a communist revolution could produce such barbarities.

TRA supporters and apologists cannot fathom that the left could be guilty of misogyny, ever. Even when Julie Bindel gets assaulted, as she did last night by a male TRA, Labour scotland jumps to her abusers defense....its nuts, and these nut jobs are increasingly Professors in Dept's of Gender Studies.

ChattyLion · 06/06/2019 19:20

I have been thinking about this thread today and trying to work out the psychology among the cool girl academics (is there a technical term for this viewpoint?), of which there seem to be many in various different specialisms.

I find the intense focus the cool girls have on slating gender critical feminists (or ‘so-called feminists’ or ‘self-described feminists’ or ‘white feminists’ or ‘carceral feminists’ Hmm .. whatever that even means.. or ‘T*RFs’ or y’know, as they would have it ‘feminists of the past’ Hmm or ‘feminists of of a certain age’ ... it’s all really strange.

The cool girls seem to mostly reserve their ire for other women writing academic texts they don’t agree with or other women making public statements that they don’t agree with- activity/speech which is often described as ‘attacks’.

What I mean is that the cool girls seem to really care about what feminists have said or thought.

They’re really not out organising to make any changes to the system it seems. They don’t hardly mention or don’t critique - anti-women governments or judges or MPs or religious leaders or religious followers or whoever it is who actually has a lot of power and who essentially makes or maintains whatever situation: be it political, legal or practical- that the cool girls are objecting to.

It seems so pointless in energy terms, or likelihood of making change terms, to give off a load of vitriol about these bad feminists from academic women who are very anxious to call themselves feminists and be seen as feminists.

I suppose it fits the trend to reserve your energy for critiquing people who call themselves the very thing which you call yourself. Because identity is so very important. Hmm so it seems really key to the cool girl project to try to wrestle the feminist term back off those bad, old, not very nice feminists, rather than to criticise and try to tackle the actual power structures that are fucking things up.

I’m not being coherent but I just find it baffling that in a previous era where the apparently lefty academic folk devil would have been religious leaders or the right-wing government, now, it’s the wrong kind of feminist.

I wonder if it’s almost as if there is a teeny part of the cool girls that might have an inkling that their man-pleasing brand is well.. perhaps not very feminist.?

Hence the opprobrium aimed at any feminist women who points the man-pleasing, selling-out-of-other-women, aspects out to them. Is it not nice for the cool girls to have sunlight on their cognitive dissonance? Is that why it seems to important to discredit and silence the bad feminists? Because they make things awkward and off message by using the same term the cool girls use to self-describe and so the baddies fuck up the branding? Or is it something else?

Justhadathought · 06/06/2019 19:56

Chatty Lion

That sounds perfectly cogent to me. Interesting observations & thoughts.

Do you think , maybe, because they learned their politics from post-modernism; which really is just a semantic head fuck, and little to do with material reality? It's as if nothing is real outside of your own perception.

ChattyLion · 06/06/2019 20:12

nothing is real outside your own perception

Just I haven’t read the relevant stuff so I don’t know about the theory, but that idea of a rejection of material reality sounds right. It doesn’t feel like a viewpoint you’d want to (or be able to) sustain for a lifetime though does it?

Surely the endless cognitive dissonance and the required self abasement gets exhausting? and then once you are in the real world as a working mother or whatever, surely at that point material reality is only too present and impossible to avoid..?

ChattyLion · 06/06/2019 20:18

It just seems quite immature and a bit narcissistic, I mean. You’d need to have a lot of time, patience and mental energy to keep on with keeping the belief up.

Maybe that’s why the cool girl virtue cookies seem to be so appreciated! Grin

Goosefoot · 07/06/2019 01:53

I absolutely think that post-modernism is a big part of it. They don't really think of themselves as denying material reality though, in fact they think that they are materialists.

But they are used to maintaining many different systems that are not compatible at the same time, in little boxes. They are used to their ethics not touching their metaphysics not touching their science and none of it having much to do with what they actually do in their lives.

That's how education has worked for a good long while now, it has no centre, because it doesn't want to talk about first principles, none of it is rooted. Young students don't get much history, even modern history, and certainly no history of thought. They don't read much, either.

It's not that they have to work to avoid cognitive dissonance. There literally is nothing holding together their thought process.

ChattyLion · 07/06/2019 09:21

Goose, jeepers. I can imagine the academics don’t have time to read much (especially if they have lives outside work) given the rise in academic admin workload expectations that you hear about- so maybe it’s not just the students.

If it’s about dislocation of ideas then is that maybe why identity prioritisation and politics and tribalism becomes so appealing?

I mean I do absolutely get it, wanting to find your people politically. (hello, FWR Grin) I feel sad about being ‘politically homeless’ it is such an odd sensation after all these years and I would like to have a political party that I trust to get behind. I can also recognise lazy thinking the I have had before where I assumed the political left was consistently virtuous and the right consistently corrupt.

But I wonder is the tendency for tribalism why the cool woke types imagine that if GC feminists criticise the left wing parties and hand back our membership cards or whatever that we must be immediately straight off to join the far right instead? (I mean, WTF) I just can’t see how anyone can think that would be the logical progression.

Goosefoot · 07/06/2019 12:45

ChattyLion

Yes, I think what you are saying is true, the tribalism comes out of the lack of dislocation of ideas. If there isn't anything really true, you have only a self-created identity and you have to assert that over other ways of viewing the world, through aggression because there isn't any other standard for truth. And how do women typically show aggression - through language and kicking you out of the cool clique.

The reading thing is a lot worse than I had realised until recently. I was chatting about it with an older professor friend of mine, who sees it as coming all the way from early education. Even up into high school the children don't read a lot, or perhaps more importantly, they don't read very difficult texts. Many don't really know how to read a difficult text. So even the bright students come into university with a disadvantage. And with the state universities are in some of them manage to get through several degrees without reading anything substantial.

realdoctor · 08/06/2019 21:42

To come back to the original question, I'd recommend Sister Outrider's blog as a great resource. It is informed by academic debates, well-written, with suggestions for further reading. It's also good on racism and heterosexism, and it's written by a black lesbian feminist. It clearly explains the differences between radical feminism and queer feminism. I don't know what Sister Outrider does in real life but I hope she goes into academia ...

As for academics like A. Phipps, we may speculate about personal, professional or other motivations. But there's also a structural issue. Accepting 'gender as identity' enables a lot of female academics to carry on as normal, and to avoid troubling questions. Funny that, I always thought queerness was all about unsettling ...

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