Irish model in the GRA debate?

[NonnyMouse1337]

I've seen a lot written on the GRA / self-id debate in Scotland and the rest of the UK. There is a lot of comparison made with Canada and how the issues faced there are the sort of issues we can expect to encounter in the UK if self-id goes through.

Very little is said about the issue in Ireland. All I've heard is that it's a different system.

Is it better implemented? More stringent? Has it been successful or are feminist, academic, scientific debates and opposition being suppressed?

If it is a genuinely better implementation, what can we learn from it?

Is there Irish critique that we just aren't hearing?

Unfortunately i think transmen have the legal right to self ID in ireland. Irish politicians moving too fast trying to be liberal not understanding that that puts born women in danger

Sorry! Poor comprehension!!

There is very little criticism of it so far. All just backslapping for being so woke.

Will try and look for a source but this is what I remember... sex still matters. Women cannot identify their way into the clergy. Men cannot identify their way into women's prisons.

The first is hypocrisy and the second is sensible. Here in the UK we seem to only go for the hypocrisy.

Inheritance! How could I miss it. You cannot identify your way into an inheritance.

Here's another thread, it has some good links on it www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3382826-A-callout-to-Irish-Feminists

Afaik, there's also an important difference in Irish equality legislation. It lists gender as a protected characteristic, defined as male, female, or trans. 3 categories. It conflates sex and gender, yes, but also legally separates female sex from trans status.

There are no separate and conflicts citing characteristics for sex and gender reassignment, as in the UK.

I'm not a lawyer, but a legal friend informed me that the she believes Irish equality laws offer some protections because they effectively state TWANW, at least in the strict sense.

Thanks for the replies! Sorry it took me so long to get back to this thread.

It's been quite informative reading up on it.

So as I understand it:

• Self-id in Ireland was quietly introduced, with no proper consultation or public debate. Only trans groups were consulted. Most of the general public are unaware of its existence and implications.
• Irish equality law has three separate categories - male, female, trans. Although gender and sex are conflated, there is no clear endorsement that TWAW.
• there are a number of exceptions to allow for sex segregation such as clergy, inheritance, prisons, certain services etc.
• A review of the self-id implementation is meant to take place. I don't think assessments have been made about the impacts.
• there is a certain amount of intimidation and harassment against those who disagree or challenge transgender ideology. Since it is a smaller population, there aren't that many vocal GC feminists yet.

WPUK has a good summary.

womansplaceuk.org/the-irish-question/

I'm Irish. I wrote this a while back for A Woman's Place UK: womansplaceuk.org/an-irish-woman-speaks/

Legally there are differences to what's being proposed in the UK, but I think Self-ID changes culture first and foremost, and that's what's happened here. It is impossible to question it openly. Because of this, a lot of people have no idea it ever happened and the rest don't know what's really being claimed by gender theorists. I've had conversations where someone has simultaneously stood up for the use of the word 'terf', AND accused me of being daft when I say that people claim biological sex doesn't exist.

I have a friend who's gay, he said transmen come on to him and he doesn't know how to react, he's afraid of being accused of transphobia. This is in The George, Ireland's most famous gay pub. The last time he had to be circumspect about his sexuality was about twenty years ago in Kerry.

No politician will discuss it properly, and practically no journalist will either. The party in government is Fine Gael. FG are fiscally conservative and have been in power while thousands of children have become homeless. Self ID is perfect woke-washing for them.

Thank you so much, Mermoose, for your valuable online contribution. It annoys and upsets me that women in so many countries are struggling to voice their concerns and opposition to self-id and are harassed and silenced if they do try.
And men using the veneer of being woke and progressive but are just as bigoted and misogynistic as the men they claim to denounce.

Mermoose I love 'woke-washing'!!!

Cheers NonnyMouse1337. Yeah, this whole thing has been an eye-opener - how misogynistic some men will be when they know they'll get away with it.
ElfrideSwancourt I have to admit I got that phrase from Helen Lewis! It is great though isn't it.

I've been trying to figure out why this has gotten such a hold here. I think it's partly because we're only just really breaking free of the church, and this superficially looks like a rejection of religion. Ironically it shares so much with the bad old days of the church here - TWAW is just the Catholic doctrine of Transubstantiation all over again, this time with glitter. What's eerie is that so many people who professed belief in that, weren't able to clearly state what it actually meant. And nor is anyone able to state what they mean by 'gender identity' or 'TWAW'. And if you question this, you receive the same tactics the church used: obfuscation (you're not clever enough to understand this complicated, sophisticated concept, so just accept it); ostracisation (you're a bad person, and it's dangerous for people to listen to you).

During the run up to the referendum on repealing the 8th Amendment (that was the constitutional block to any access to abortion, and the vote was to get rid of it), some pro-lifers had this pattern to their arguments. You'd mention examples of times when the 8th had endangered women's lives, and they would always say it was down to something else - medical mistakes, for example. Even now, pro-8th people will say that the 8th had nothing to do with Savita Halappanavar's death. And now, it doesn't matter what happens - Karen White, the Kristi Hanna case - it's never the fault of Self ID. The mad thing is that the people who now refuse to admit gender theory can hurt women abhorred pro-life people for doing the same thing. I honestly don't know how they can't see it.

Mermoose, thanks for that link (and writing it). I remember that "letter" that you mention. It was cringe-inducing (at best).

The thing I notice most here (I'm also Irish) is the impossibility of discussion. It sometimes seems like a cohort of Repeal activists suddenly found themselves with time and rage on their hands and turned it on the GC. These were "my people" and suddenly, they were not. I notice Cinnamon Girl on Twitter and she'll ask if anyone wants to talk/discuss/care ... and I'm thinking "yes, we're here - but we need to set up Twitter accounts that are non-identifying before we can speak".

Check out Jean Cross' blog - this post is a response to the "Terfs Out" letter from Irish libfems, and the rest of the blog is worth a read

stormforcefeminist.wordpress.com/2018/02/06/poisoned-letter/

Or this

storyboardoflife.wordpress.com/2018/02/22/an-open-letter-to-uk-feminists-we-need-to-talk/

Or check out Ireland Resisters on Twitter. There is some opposition to the madness.

Thanks for the links to the blog posts pachyderm. The historical links between British and Irish feminists was really interesting to read.

@pachyderm - thanks for both those links.

Just wanted to also say thanks for the links pachyderm. Both really good, sane posts.

3timeslucky, if you can spend time on Twitter without going mad, support for women like Cinnamon Girl really means a lot, I think. From an anonymous account if necessary. We really need to counter the narrative that all Irish women are just fine with all this.

I love Cinnamon Girl. I don't know her personally but I know a couple of people who've been in touch with her, she keeps a low profile. She's an independent thinker and a voice of reason.

Woke Irish Twitter is really dreadful; full of stupidity and bullying. I like to think their views are not representative.

I'm on Twitter on an anonymous account and have been subject to a Terf-down. Irish GC feminists need to co-ordinate. It's lonely out there.

Afaik, there's also an important difference in Irish equality legislation. It lists gender as a protected characteristic, defined as male, female, or trans. 3 categories. It conflates sex and gender, yes, but also legally separates female sex from trans status.

Really? Didn't know that! That puts quite a different light on it, doesn't it?

@Mermoose am I right in thinking that Irish Self-ID means that there is no requirement for "bottom surgery"?

If so, this reassurance cannot be relied on to prevent an Irish #waxmyballs fiasco @Ereshkigal :

"However, the Act also allows people to be treated differently on the basis of their ‘gender’ in all of the following circumstances:

People can be treated differently in relation to cosmetic services that involve physical contact – for instance, hairdressing, body waxing, and so on;"

cited here: womansplaceuk.org/the-irish-question/

The outcome of this court case suggests that the likes of #waxmyballs would have a field day taking advantage of the Irish GRA, ie. to force women to handle male genitalia

NOTE: the case below involves a transman, NOT a transwoman

Dublin barber fined €5,000 in transgender discrimination case
‘We don’t cut ladies’ hair. I’m sorry,’ barber told transgender man Lee McLoughlin (28)

Extracts (my bolding):

Upholding the claim, WRC adjudication officer Gerard McMahon ordered the respondent in the case, Paula Smith of Charlie’s Barbers, to pay out €5,000 to Mr McLoughlin.

Mr McMahon said: “I conclude that the complainant was treated differently, because he was transgender when he was refused a haircut by the respondent. This amounts to discrimination on the grounds of gender.”

When questioned at the WRC hearing as to what might have led the barber to take the stance that he did, Mr McLoughlin responded that he was “not sure” as he “was dressed as a male” and “was trying my best to appear male”.

Mr McLoughlin said the refusal by the barber necessitated an emergency counselling session.

When asked about redress at hearing, Mr McLoughlin responded that the case “was not about money”.

He explained it was about the principle and the precedent on behalf of those who might find themselves in a similar scenario in the future.

Full story:

www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/dublin-barber-fined-5-000-in-transgender-discrimination-case-1.3577517

(I bolded "emergency counselling session" because I am wondering about the apparent ease with which an "emergency counselling session" was arranged! aka FFS!!!)

@Molesmokes there's definitely no requirement for any kind of medical transition. I don't know what's meant, legally, by the three categories of 'gender'. "The Gender Recognition Act allows all individuals over the age of 18 to self-declare their own gender identity" (that's from TENI, Transgender Equality Network Ireland). So someone who does that declares themselves as a woman or man (I don't think they've added NB yet), not as trans.

There are exceptions as to what this entitles someone to - prisons still house inmates according to sex, not legal gender - but I just don't know how this works in a lot of areas. I've asked for clarification from TDs and people in relevant organisations, but I never get a response, or if I do, it's just to tell me I'm a bigot for asking.

Just to go back to the original post - I think what Ireland shows is that it is just a terrible idea to put into law that people have to accept something which is untrue. The whole 'oh what a tangled web we weave' thing is spot on. You start off with something that seems on the face of it to be harmless and kind, and you end up in a situation where you are flamed for stating that biological sex exists. To have a workable law protecting the rights of trans people, we need to have a definition of gender. That way, we could be sure that it didn't supersede sex-based laws. Of course that's a problem. As far as I can see, there is no possible definition of gender that isn't based on sexist stereotypes, and trans rights groups always deny that they are reinforcing stereotypes.

Unrelated to the OP, but interesting nonetheless, Kitty Holland (Irish Times journalist) was ratioed ("Of a tweet on Twitter, having significantly more replies than retweets or likes, indicating popular dislike for the tweet in question.") on Twitter after trying to attack Jean Hatchet.
twitter.com/KittyHollandIT/status/1137698701357518848

Ireland is a lost cause and IMO there is no recourse in law to save women, because of the law here conflates sex and gender so much as to be meaningless. But more importantly the media, politics, government and civil society have been completely infiltrated and hijacked by the Woke.

Case in point: on the above mentioned Kitty thread there was a was a comment from the HSE (Irish NHS) Communications Manager DeniseRyan (on a personal account) quite explicitly saying that TWAW, and not a word to support Jean's work commemorating female victims of male violence.

PS I have been on MN previously under a different name, but needed a change. I'm an Irish mum, living in Ireland.

I don't think it is hopeless here at all. There has not been an organised resistance to gender ideology here, so the self-styled intellectual elite have had free reign to mouth off. A lot of people have no idea what is going on.

But I have noticed that outside of these circles people are generally not buying into it and can be openly critical. I noticed this in comments underneath newspaper articles and the like.

There had been some decent media coverage, though not much so a lot of people are in the dark. I think getting the word out is the main issue. And due to the fact that we already have self-id we are on the back-foot by comparison to the UK in legal terms.

I agree Cumann, Middle Ireland isn't having it. And there will be some kind of scandal or tipping point. Look at Scouting Ireland, mired in historic sex abuse, while the Irish Girl Guides merrily announces that they will admit boys. That will not play out well.

We have got to keep talking and raising awareness. It's dispiriting when some of our broadsheet journalists are real dimwits with no ability to think critically but they don't own all the space for discussion.

Cumann I agree as well. My personal experience with wider friends and family is that the vast majority think trans people are old-school transexuals with full SRS etc. The second they find out it's not the case - which they are doing in increasing numbers as stories like Karen Bradley and Rachel McKinnon hit their awareness - they are all incredulous. With zero exceptions, they can't believe that men are being housed in women's prisons, being allowed to compete in women's sports, etc. just on their say so. None of them were aware that self ID with zero gatekeeping was in place in Ireland, even though it's been the case for ~4 years now.

I have a relative who is involved in respite care for kids in care, and she had been through training (from a UK agency) that was 100% Mermaids compliant. She had been told that trans children are completely certain of their gender identity from toddlerhood, that puberty blockers were completely safe and completely reversible, and all the usual. Within a few sentences, where I described the actual state f affairs, she was shocked that children were treated like such guinea pigs.

Most Irish people do not believe TWAW and are not plugged into woke Twitter so don't see the craziness.

At the moment, it's very costly to be gender-critical, it's easy to be pro gender theory. I think this is why we're seeing unthinking enthusiasm for self ID from people who wouldn't usually stick their neck out for social issues. People like Regina Doherty get back-slaps for condemning Prime Time for even discussing this topic. Has she really thought about how her actions and comments will look in ten years time, or whenever it is that the bubble bursts? I find it very hard to believe that Fine Gael are supportive of the GRA out of the softness of their hearts. They saw what way the wind was blowing and this is something that they believed costed them nothing while giving them a thin veneer of humanity. We need to bring it home to politicians that this is something they have to weigh carefully. There are consequences for women's safety and children's well-being, so there should be political consequences too. This is why I think Irish GC women need to get writing to TDs, registered letters, pointing this out clearly and asking that the TD confirms their support for open debate on this topic. That's all I want - open and fair discussion.