Is this internalised misogyny?

[Stoptheworldandmelt]

So, this is my first thread in feminism, and I am hoping that I can get some productive and challenging viewpoints.
I was raised by a man that seemed to actively dislike women. I now realise he definitely did. A lot of people would say I'm traditionally masc, in terms of hobbies, dress sense, mannerisms, and I was heavily praised for this as a child. As a teenager I delighted in not being 'like other girls'. I've now come to realise that is damaging, and degrading to other women, and I'm still trying to challenge the hangovers from a childhood like this, but I'm getting there.
My issue is this. I've recently started a new job, and as I so often do, I've fallen in with a group of lads, and I get on with most of them, apart from man x, who we will call Joe. Joe is a sexist. He is obsessed with sex, and really doesn't seem to think much of women, apart from women like me, who can 'hold their drink' and other male-appreciated qualities. Obviously, this is problematic, but I find him tolerable as part of a wider group of friends. Many of the other blokes don't find him funny, he is challenged frequently by them, and I can have a nice night out dispite his presence, and can even enjoy his company when he manages to be respectful.
I also work with a woman, slightly younger than me (and I am quite young myself, we're the youngest two employees), and I cannot tolerate her, we'll call her Sarah. She is selfish, spoilt and comes across very arrogant. She barely speaks to me, and will actively try and block me out of conversations. If she is coming on a night out, in a small group, I won't go. I cannot seem to spend a pleasant evening with her around, because she dominates every conversation.

This has led me to wonder why I find unpleasant behaviour so much harder to tolerate in women. I am much more forgiving to the failures of men, than I am of women, and this isn't the first example of this. My DH says he is the opposite, and thinks it's because we hold our own sex to a higher standard (for example, he doesn't mind Sarah, but won't come out if Joe is coming, or will actively avoid him), but I think that's unusual. I wonder if this is a part of my own internalised misogyny, and if so, how do I overcome it?

Just to be super clear, neither Joe nor Sarah are aware of my opinion of them, because we all work together, I am always friendly and polite, especially to Sarah.

I think all women are harsher on other women than on men.

We’ve all been conditioned to be like that.

Look at how female criminals are perceived compared to males.

That's true. I'm just questioning it because of the stark difference. And I don't know that it's generally true that men hold men to higher standards than they hold women? My DH is unusual in a lot of his views on these things, generally speaking, so I don't know that his view is representative on the response from men generally.

I think that in most cases men are judged as individuals but women are judged as a group. Women as a group are conditioned to be 'nice' so when a woman isnt nice its more jarring.

If a woman is unpleasant then it is seen as a reflection on all women, not just that particular woman.

It makes sense in my head anyway!

I also think we are conditioned by society to tolerate misogyny. One look at how rape trials are conducted and reported and the resulting prosecutions can tell you that women don't matter, she asked for it, she was to blame, "boys will be boys", etc.

Joe and Sarah sound like not very nice people to be around but you will tolerate the man more than the woman. You could call it internalised misogyny but I suggest it's due to your upbringing and socialisation and I'm just pleased that you are self aware enough to acknowledge it and start this thread. Many wouldn't even question it OP.

I think we are also conditioned to be agreeable to men. So when a woman is 'unpleasant' we want to show the men that the rest of us are still 'nice' and compliant by disassociating ourselves as much as possible from the woman rocking the boat.

It's extremely hard to say because they are different people exhibiting different traits.
Maybe the traits that Sarah exhibits are just more annoying to you, personally.
Having said that, we know people make the "boys will be boys" excuse for male behaviour, so it's definitely a thing.

This is all really helpful to think about. I've worked a lot over the past few years because I realised I was quite distainful of feminity, because of my dad, and I am actively trying to improve that, because no one needs that.

I think this is a fairly common experience OP.

What I would also want to think about is why Sarah is behaving like this. What is it that she feels threatened about? Why does she want to sideline another female colleague of a similar age?

I would want to focus my energy on trying to create a better understanding between you and Sarah, if at all possible. I would not spend any energy on Joe at all.

Your energies growing up had to be directed to pleasing someone who 'actively disliked
women.' That will have taken up a lot of your emotional resources and taught you that men need to be centred first.

Perhaps the situation with Sarah gives you a good 'opportunity' to continue changing the old patterns? You come first of course, but it might help Sarah too.

That is hugely insightful sisterwendy. I appreciate your perspective and that's really helpful to consider. I think Sarah and I are just very different people and unfortunately we only see each other socially, we aren't on the same team at work, but you've definitely given me something to think on. Thanks

I do think think when a particular thing annoys us or makes us react more than seems proportional, it is usually because it is something about ourselves. Maybe it reminds us of something we despise about ourselves, or it someone we know and have a particularly bad relationship with, that sort of thing.

In the general sense, I would not have assumed that your situation is about internalised misogyny. Since you feel like you are needing to work to clear up your feelings about "girly" kinds of behaviour, that might be a factor in your reaction. But since you are aware of that, I think you can be rational about it.

Notwithstanding your father's issues, in my experience, men do tend to socialise a little differently than women do, obviously that's a generalisation, but it's a common enough thing to find in a work setting. Often the conversation can be less personal than with a group of women, and as a woman it can also feel less competitive with a group of men. and I think it can be easier to deal with a difficult personality under those circumstances.

I'm going to give a different opinion. Their beliefs are the same but their behaviour is different.

With Joe, you can manage his behaviour because it isn't personal. He is a misogynist, you are a woman. You are used to handling men who are misogynists and you have the support of your partner and colleagues.

With Sarah, she has treated you like the enemy, a competitor - she has internalised misogyny. It is personally directed at you, and you are reacting to that.