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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jeanette Winterson speaks out

25 replies

MrsSnippyPants · 31/05/2019 10:17

www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/reuters/article-7088103/No-rush-change-gender--UK-writer-joins-trans-debate.html

Wonder if she will get piled on?

OP posts:
nettie434 · 31/05/2019 10:22

She will but she is a very determined person. The phrase about knowing it will be a controversial view sounds as if she is prepared. Hope so anyway!

FloralBunting · 31/05/2019 10:27

Now that's interesting, because I seem to recall that she was quite TWAW a while ago. Sounding a note of caution over eagerly transing kids is definitely a step in the right direction. She was a huge influence on me in my teenage years.

Floisme · 31/05/2019 10:30

Love Jeanette Winterson, even though I can't understand a word of some of her books, so I'm stupidly thrilled to read that. She lived with Mrs Winterson for 16 years so I can't imagine a few TRAs scaring her.

Iggypoppie · 31/05/2019 10:36

Wow her new book sounds fascinating. Frankisstein.

nauticant · 31/05/2019 10:41

This surprises me. Her brand new* novel Frankisstein has this as the blurb:

In Brexit Britain, a young transgender doctor called Ry is falling in love – against their better judgement – with Victor Stein, a celebrated professor leading the public debate around AI.

That's a heterosexual relationship by the way.

  • what, publicity you say?
Frusty · 31/05/2019 10:41

I saw the book advertised but I thought it was more on the TRA side - will read it if it’s not.

nauticant · 31/05/2019 10:44

That was my initial view too Frusty because the discussion I heard about it seemed to be in terms of "permitted speech".

Datun · 31/05/2019 10:49

"If someone comes and offers you a solution and says, 'Oh yes, if you had a different body you'd feel fine' and you're a bit uncertain, you might take that," she told the Thomson Reuters Foundation.

She's going to get piled on for that. Saying that transitioning is a solution to a problem, an option, not a naturally occurring, innate essence.

I wonder if any pile on will alter her opinion and harden her stance.

Floisme · 31/05/2019 10:57

I wouldn't take a novel as evidence of taking a side. I think she just likes exploring ideas. She's pretty fearless, as you would be if you left home at 16 and lived in a car.

DodoPatrol · 31/05/2019 11:05

*Now we can... change our gender, make ourselves faster, cleverer.'

Hmm. Or indeed slower and dimmer?

DodoPatrol · 31/05/2019 11:06

(To be fair, I don't think she was saying that a gender change would have the effect of making someone faster/cleverer.)

I see she's chosen a female trans protagonist, so it could be interesting to see how she treats the issue. Probably more chance of writing as a fully rounded character than going for the BraveandStunning option and avoiding any hint of criticism.

RoyalCorgi · 31/05/2019 11:16

The story doesn't explain why she was talking to Reuters in the first place. What was the context, I wonder?

WhereYouLeftIt · 31/05/2019 15:22

" "One of the problems of offering kids hormones... and counselling and making them think, 'Oh I'm not comfortable', (is that) no kids ever are comfortable," Winterson said.

Adolescence - by its nature - is uncomfortable, she said. "Everything is wrong.""

Yup. Spot on!

Doyoumind · 31/05/2019 15:28

Surely if she's writing about transgender characters whilst not being a member of the community she will get a pile on like John Boyne did. Or maybe not if it's about a trans man.

Lumene · 31/05/2019 16:09

Great that she is encouraging open debate with children’s interests at heart.

I don’t see why that is incompatible with having a trans character in her book?

2rebecca · 31/05/2019 16:17

I'm a Jeanette fan so was disappointed when I heard she was doing a trans novel. Her trans male character still accepts that they are largely female though so it's not TMAM. Am only 1/3 of the way through it and enjoying it so far although she seemed to enjoy writing a whole chapter on different types of sex bots! There are no transwomen in it so far and I suspect she has more sympathy for women being masculine in a butch lesbian sort of way than males appropriating femininity and saying that femininity is being a woman.

Jux · 01/06/2019 11:18

I wonder if any TW has ever pressed theirselves upon her (I mean figuratively, but literally too, though I find that really hard to imagine) and insisted that not sucking their lady-dick is literal violence.

Am another Winterson fan, but haven't got this one yet - was hoping for it for birthday, but alas!

hoodathunkit · 01/06/2019 11:23

Just throwing something into the mix

Winterson is the wife of the extremely controversial psychotherapist Susie Orbach

Orbach is a long term promoter of David Icke style conspiracy theories about satanic ritual abuse, multiple personality disorder / dissociative identity disorder etc. and is also a node in multiple networks connected to the Tavistock and to quacks promoting body psychotherapy and yoga cults, some of which are extremely dangerous

Orbach is also on very friendly terms with Valerie Sinason and her satanic ritual abuse promoting deluded psychotherapy cult operating out of the Clinic for Dissociative Studies, the Bowlby Centre, Confer and a multitude of dodgy charities, not-for profits, community interest companies and other entities, all of which have strong links to the Tavistock and Portman NHS Mental Health Trust and to the BBC

Of course just because Winterson is married to Orbach it does not necessarily imply that she shares Orbach's views and opinions, however it is important to note that Winterson is one of a significant number of influential figures who have married cough interesting psychotherapists.

Just sharing in case some readers are interested in the connections between the Tavistock, SRA conspiracy theories and wider issues, as always, GIYF

placemats · 01/06/2019 11:25

Her comments are bound to stir controversy, with some feminists and trans activists already at odds over rights.

Why would her comments stir controversy with feminists?

RoyalCorgi · 01/06/2019 12:04

Bit surprised about Susie Orbach. She's most famous as author of Fat Is A Feminist Issue, and all the stuff I've read by her has seemed pretty sensible.

RoyalCorgi · 01/06/2019 12:06

In fact, she seems quite gender-critical:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/susie-orbach-on-womens-bodies-and-why-the-panic-about-gender-is-disturbing-qrhq9nfpk

Whatisthisfuckery · 01/06/2019 12:13

I have a quiet week this week as DS is off on a school trip so I might download her new book if it’s not too expensive.

I’ve been a bit disappointed that she’s not spoken before, considering what she went through as a young lesbian. I’m glad she is taking the correct stance on child and adolescent transition but I’d have liked to see her supporting lesbians.

The more cynicle part of me thinks this is all a publicity exercise to sell her new book. She’s not exactly emphatic, it’s all a bit wishywashy if you ask me, and she’s ignoring all of the other hulking elephants in the room. I’m stil not convinced by her conviction, beyond flogging her new book that is. It’s a shame, I thought she might stand up for her lesbian sisters, especially as homophobia has been implicated by former Tavistock doctors as the reason for some parents pushing so hard for their kids to transition.

hoodathunkit · 01/06/2019 12:50

Re Orbach’s connections to the satanic panic and associated hysteria and delusions this link is helpful

<a class="break-all" href="https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:LfzyUUHuqz0J:www.taylorfrancis.com/books/e/9780429901966/chapters/10.4324/9780429477195-6+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=safari" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:LfzyUUHuqz0J:www.taylorfrancis.com/books/e/9780429901966/chapters/10.4324/9780429477195-6+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=safari

The above link is to a chapter in an extremely controversial book “Memory in Dispute” by world leading satan hunter and therapy cult leader Valerie Sinason

Orbach’s chapter is described thus:

"Chapter Five
False memory syndrome
BySusie Orbach
Pages11
In this chapter, Susie Orbach shows the part that feminism played in the understanding of the extent of abuse against women and children. She examines the processes of personal denial in the consulting-room, as well as societal denial and the role of the media.”

In my extensive personal experience of deluded mental health professionals they promote recovered memory testimonies as “evidence” of satanic ritual abuse and regard any skeptical questioning of such testimonies as “denial of sexual abuse”.

This is an appalling stance to take as vulnerable people can be brainwashed into believing all kinds of bizarre things via exposure to quack therapies.

Also, over the years I have met countless women, many of them lesbians and / or feminists, who “recovered memories” of incest and / or satanic ritual abuse following therapy at the Women’s Therapy Centre in London. Orbach founded the Women’s Therapy centre and it should come as no great surprise to anyone that she is networked in to a horrifying array of charlatans.

Readers might find this archived webpage interesting, I believe the author is the journalist who writes the “satanic panic” sections in Private Eye magazine.

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20140703154738/dramatispersonae.nfshost.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20140703154738/dramatispersonae.nfshost.com/

NOTE: The links on the page d not work. You will have to scroll down to find the relevant section or, to search for “Orbach” (or just type control or cmd + f to search the page) The relevant section is about the notorious satan hunter Beatrix Campbell and explores the connections between feminism and radical feminism and the promotion of the satanic panic. I have emphasised the text relevant to Orbach.

The entire page is worthy of serious consideration, but the section relevant to Orbach reads:.

"Amongst the feminist community, Ms. Campbell OBE is still an iconic figure, despite her association with religious fundamentalism and the promotion of the SRA Myth and other causes that have negatively impacted on women, particularly women with children. The organisation Feminism in London thinks enough of her that they invited her as a keynote speaker in the opening session of the Feminism in London 2009 gathering, and also in recognition of the her appointment as Commissioner to the Board of the Women’s National Commission (WNC) though the WMC, not having contributed anything positive to the lives of the UK's women was wound-up in 2011 by the Coalition government. In addition to Ms. Campbell (OBE) another keynote speaker was Susan (Suzie) Orbach - most famous for being suspected as the source of the psychobabble Princess Diana had produced in televised conversation during her period of greatest stress, but also hugely associated with the DID/MPD/SRA Myth movement. Indeed in 2006 in Commercial Street, London, Ms. Orbach chaired a round-up session with Valerie Sinason and others, at the The John Bowlby Memorial Conference - Trauma & Attachment, which also included contributions from leading Mind Control SRA Myth advocate Sue Richardson (mentioned earlier) whose history in child protection goes back to being the child abuse consultant appointed by Cleveland social services department, just in time for the infamous 1987 Cleveland RAD Scandal (it was she who decided the best thing to do was remove the children whose rectums had been examined by Dr. Marietta Higgs and Dr. Geoffrey Wyatt from their families). Such is the obsession with the right-wing Christian-fundamentalist-derived SRA Myth, that it is virtually impossible for any feminist conference to avoid even accidentally inviting an SRA Myth advocate, albeit if they are now 'getting on' a little in years.

By way of illustration the list of speaking guests for Feminism in London 2010 included Jill Radford, described as a radical feminist and member of the Campaign to End Rape. She has recently retired as Professor of Women’s Studies and Criminology and Director of the Section for the Study of Gender Violence at the University of Teesside.... She is also co-author of Demons, devils and denial: towards a feminist understanding of ritual/satanic abuse with leading SRA advocate and True Believer Dr. Liz Kelly, published in now-defunct feminist periodical Trouble & Strife, volume 22 that itself had enthusiastically adopted the ultra-right fundamentalist-derived 'Myth. Ms. Radford though hasn't written sufficient a body of work in support of the 'Myth to be able to call herself a True Believer.

.”

hoodathunkit · 01/06/2019 12:55

Orbach's associate Valerie Sinason was one of the therapists involved in the appalling abuses against Carol Felstead

www.theguardian.com/society/2011/dec/11/carole-myers-satanic-child-abuse

For an in depth reading of the Felstead case that will shock any reasonable person I would suggest a thorough perusal of this blog, created by Carol's family members

www.justiceforcarol.com

LouiseMiltonSpatula · 02/06/2019 15:08

I think it would be difficult to paint Jeanette Winterson as being anti-trans after reading Written on the Body, which makes the point that the body is hugely important, but not in its relation to gender.

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