If a girl can't consent to sex, can she consent to pregnancy? Childbirth? An abortion?

[drspouse]

So, if a 12 year old can't consent to sex, but thinks she has consented (to make things a bit simpler let's assume the boy is under 16). She gets pregnant.
I understand that most children who become pregnant do not have a termination but instead have the baby and it is raised by her parents.
But if she's not able to consent to sex - because she does not understand the implications - how can she understand the effect on her child's body of a pregnancy?
But again, how can she understand and consent to a termination? Given she'd be unlikely to have competency to consent to other medical procedures?
I'm not sure where the law stands but I guess I'm really asking about actual competency rather than what's legally the case.

A few years ago I read an argument on here regarding abortion, that it was the route that maintained the status quo. That the big decision is to continue with a pregnancy.

I think that with children, this is the way I would err - I would say that at 12, the risks of pregnancy are so huge, that the affect it would have on that child's life to be pregnant and have a baby are all but inconceivable to them, so abortion should be the default position - maintain the child's safety, leave their life as it is, and not build up an abortion as some huge life decision. The huge life decision would be to continue the pregnancy.

At twelve, even in the context of what used to be Gillick Competence, decisions are made with parental involvement, advice and support where a child needs medical treatment they don't agree with. This is something hospitals are used to dealing with.

I would think medical professionals would regard this as a safeguarding issue if a termination was refused after all process to explain the necessity, and it would be something they would seek a court decision about. I also can't see a judge deciding that it is in the interests of a 12 year old to undergo the very serious risks of a pregnancy if asked to make the call, as the only brief at that point is objectively deciding what is in the best interests of the child.

I agree with Buttery that it should be the default.

The huge life decision would be to continue the pregnancy.
I am inclined to agree.

At twelve, even in the context of what used to be Gillick Competence, decisions are made with parental involvement
This would work OK if the parents were also seriously considering the effect on the child's body and life of continuing the pregnancy, giving birth, and bringing up a child.

However, a parent who through neglect (and allowing a child to be sufficiently unsupervised to get into this position could be seen as neglect) or convictions does NOT want the child to have a termination could either just let the situation drift (not take the girl to the doctor's, tell the girl it's morally wrong to terminate, tell the girl she's got plenty of time to decide) or actively refuse to let her terminate (she asks for it, but the parent says no they are not taking her to the doctor, the child has not got enough autonomy to do this herself - would the GP even accept a 12 year old making their own appointment?)

the GP even accept a 12 year old making their own appointment?

I don't know; but I do know that the school helped arrange a doctors appointment for a girl I went to school with when she was pregnant at 13. Eventually they gave her the decision of informing her parents or having a social worker

I'd hope that option is still available.

Most under 16 pregnancies do end in termination, about 60%. It's very very rare for a 12 year old to have a baby, thankfully.

would the GP even accept a 12 year old making their own appointment?

Multiple safeguarding channels through school for children to get needs met independently including what was the Early Help Assessment, which would involve the school nurse and safeguarding procedures up to and including social services taking the child into care if information couldn't be shared with parents without the child becoming unsafe in their home. If the child didn't approach a member of staff at their school for help, safeguarding procedures would be triggered the moment the pregnancy became noticeable.

If the child didn't approach a member of staff at their school for help, safeguarding procedures would be triggered the moment the pregnancy became noticeable.

I suppose that is reassuring - though of course I know some younger girls don't show much - so even if the parents are neglectful, in denial, or actively seeking to prevent a termination the school would have reason to act.

That's also reassuring, Stealth, I think I'm probably relying on anecdata.

I don't think an abortion is necessarily any less of a big life-changing event than a pregnancy. Yes, it ends the pregnancy, and superficially life will carry on similarly to before, but the sequelae, both physical and mental, can be profound and life-long.

I guess the pregnancy is the default option as it doesn't involve actively doing anything to change the course of events. I can't see how an abortion could ever be the default, given the need for consent, involving as it does a medical procedure, though I take your point that the average 12 year old would probably not be competent to fully consent to pregnancy and childbirth and then either motherhood or adoption, either.

Either option would be absolutely seismic for a 12 year old, and there are no easy answers.

Girls are not physically or emotionally mature enough to carry a pregnancy or parent a child.
It also has a major impact on their schooling, and that affects them for life. Its so much harder to get back into education once you are an adult, especially if you have a low paid job.

I don't think an abortion is necessarily any less of a big life-changing event than a pregnancy.

I definitely think it is less. I've had an abortion. My life is entirely unaffected by it - yes, I occasionally have wistful thoughts, but day to day, I know I made the right decision so I don't think about it any more than any other medical procedure I've had.

I've also had a child. I still have some after effects from the pregnancy (that will never go away), and I have a child to look after for the rest of my life (OK, so they'll become an adult, and technically I could leave them to it, but in practice I won't).

There's no two ways about it - having an abortion, sure there's a small physical risk, and mentally there's some effects potentially (although I'd contend that counselling is going to be needed for a pregnant 12 year old in any case), but compared to growing, birthing, and potentially raising a baby?

I think my queries are more around consent (as consent is needed for the abortion, but if nobody does anything the pregnancy will continue - yet that's something a 12 year old is not capable of consenting to, in reality).

The 12 year old's capacity for consent (which is individual anyway, not all 12 year olds are identical) and views would be taken into account by medical professionals/social services. It wouldn't however be the deciding factor of what action is taken.

For example a 12 year old who is a Jehovah's Witness may refuse consent for a blood transfusion, with the full support of their parents, but if they do this will be referred to court where a judge makes the deciding call on what is the child's best interests and the judge's decision is then followed. Are you wondering whether the child's consent should be wholly respected regardless of outcome? Or is this more metaphysical in to what extent a 12 year old can understand what they are consenting to? (And are you writing a book?)

I'm not writing a book - this is about a real child but not one that I know or have any further information about. All the facts I know are here, the rest is speculation but because of concern rather than curiosity.

Hearing about this case also brought to mind this book
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_Need_New_Names
which has a 10 year old who is pregnant. I couldn't even bring myself to finish that book actually because of this disturbing aspect though I know there is more to the book.

not all 12 year olds are identical
Very true but I'd have thought they varied between "developmentally delayed and don't even understand how this happened" and "understand what happened but not how this might impact them in the future" with the latter being the absolute maximum possible for this age.

Are you saying you know a pregnant twelve year old :( really hope not

Sorry misread. Ignore

I know someone who knows a pregnant 12 year old.

Of course, as I don't know the family personally, it's entirely possible the girl is making it up, the other children are making it up, or even a parent is making it up for attention.

But Brook says that 5.6 out of every 1000 13-15 year olds became pregnant in 2012 so even if we are talking 13 year olds, it's not unknown.

www.brook.org.uk/images/brook/professionals/documents/page_content/factsheets/factsheet2_2014_Teenage_conceptions.pdf

Tolleshunt as someone who's had both a termination and a child I can confirm that's just not the case. I thought of my termination often over the years but I know 100% I made the right decision and moved on, there was next to no imapact on my life.

My DD who who I absolutely adore has changed my life beyond recognition and not all of the changes have been positive.

For example a 12 year old who is a Jehovah's Witness may refuse consent for a blood transfusion, with the full support of their parents, but if they do this will be referred to court where a judge makes the deciding call on what is the child's best interests and the judge's decision is then followed.

How does a judge force a 12 year old to get a blood transfusion? Sedate them?

I have no idea of hospital policy in these cases Marin , maybe an NHS person is around who does or it's researchable on line, but as in the Guard case and others, the hospital will follow the judge's decision on the child's best interests.

OP you might find reading around Gillick Competence useful, as this was the benchmark of how to assess a child's individual competence to make decisions for a very long time. It has evolved somewhat in recent years but the basic premise is the same.

Yes there are a few thirteen year old mothers I think. But from memory twelve is extremely rare. Of course not zero. I hope the girl is OK.

twatty and butter I'm glad for both of you that you made the right decision. However, you would be wrong to assume that everybody who has had an abortion feels the same. I'm not saying that an abortion would be wrong for any individual, just that it is not automatically true across the board. Individual circumstances, resources, beliefs, emotions etc must be taken into account.

Tolleshunt

I don’t think either twatty or butter are saying everyone feels the same, but I too disagree with your comment that:

abortion is (not) necessarily any less of a big life-changing event than a pregnancy. Yes, it ends the pregnancy, and superficially life will carry on similarly to before, but the sequelae, both physical and mental, can be profound and life-long.

Sure, can be but do you think that is the usual outcome versus a pregnancy for a 12 or 13 year old? We are not talking an older women who has some experience with growing up, with starting at least to figure out her identity and what she wants in this life. Who is starting to maybe understand what an impact parenting might have on their life, positive or negative.

I have known young teens who wanted babies (and anyone remember the pregnancy pacts in the US?). Do you think when they thought of babies they thought about the serious responsibilities of parenting: of having to put the baby first, or that it might mean saying no to social events, or having to find part time work, and a caregiver? No, everyone I knew at that age who wanted a baby either thought the baby would be a cute accessory or a guarantee of love (for insecurities they were dealing with).

A 12 or 13 year old is also at far greater risk of lifelong physical complications due to their immature bodies from pregnancy and/or childbirth, including permanent pelvic damage. Do you think a 12 or 13 year old understands that they may become fecally incontinent and need a colostomy due to childbirth?

A 12 or 13 may be significantly interrupting their education (which they may never quite get fully back into). Either due to the pregnancy (ie complications from hyperemesis gravidarum, miscarriage risk (bed rest) etc) or because they choose parenting.

A 12 or 23 year old may be pressured to keep the child and become a parent - now for a lifetime which will affect so many of their decisions and even freedom to make those decisions - while they are still a child themselves. That certainly can have a profound and lifelong impact, and keep or start a cycle of poverty.

I had an abortion at 16. Not only can I say that 24 years later I have never regretted that choice, I can say I am so, so grateful at such a young age I made that decision. It “saved my life” in so many ways, mostly in allowing me to be able to pursue education, career, and better my own circumstances. So yes, I suppose the impact of my abortion was profound and lifelong in a very, very positive way.