The feminism argument against surrogacy?

[XXVaginaAndAUterus]

There's a program on radio 4 about surrogacy at the moment (trigger warning it talks about termination, miscarriage and ethics of testing procedures).

It reminded me that I've seen people on this board say quite strongly that surrogacy is wrong from a feminism point of view. Could you break it down for me and help me to understand?

I can see the argument that women's bodies aren't for rent on the surface of it. What troubles me is that isn't it just a different form of the same thing as many jobs? Lots of work involves effectively exchanging use of your body for money - builders for example, or waiting on staff. Lots of work involves the "rent" of a body in conjunction with a mind. So what makes a womb different? The danger? In which case are you against working on oil rigs or in war zones, and the military?

I'm genuinely seeking to understand this a bit better, I'm not looking for an argument.

Because renting out part of your body for 9 months isn't the same as receiving payment for your labour. Because childbirth and pregnancy are more likely to kill you or leave you with life changing injuries than working on an oil rig, because of the psychological damage which could be caused by growing a person inside of you then giving it away, because truly altruistic surrogacy is extremely rare and the likelihood is that women in difficult circumstances could be exploited into doing something they don't really want to do (similar to prostitution).

There's been quite a bit of discussion about this on here OP. Try this thread?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3594822-Guardian-the-rise-of-social-surrogacy

Can you genuinely not see the difference between being paid to do work on an oil rig and being paid to grow a baby in your own body? Really?

Well, there is more to pregnancy than renting out your body. For example, the person who is pregnant can be compelled by the buyer to not eat certain foods, to not drink certain items etc while they are pregnant. Now if you want to be pregnant with your own child you will decide on this for yourself, but if you are being paid to carry someone else's child, they get to tell you what to do for 9 whole months, maybe more if you have to "prepare" your body, 24/7. Not many jobs require this level of dedication.

Second, there are the huge health risks to women from added complications of pregnancy and birth which can not be compensated for by money - my DSIL nearly died from complications and can never have another child - would you like this to happen to you at 21 when carrying someone else child?

Third, there are many environmental impacts in the womb on the genetics of the developing child - therefore, even though the parents have tried to make the baby a completely separate genetic entity to the hosting mother, there is no way they can stop the genetic information and genetic changes which take place in the womb. So the baby is truly a physical part of the birth mother.

Fourthly, a child is not an entity to be bought - so we believe that a child has a human right not to be bought. Surrogate children are always bought - how many poor people have a child by surrogate?

Fifth, it devalues pregnancy and birth which are the main elements of being female that misogynists hate, if they could grow a child in a lab and remove the sacredness of pregnancy they would. This is the first step along the line.

I don't really understand why people can be totally on board with surrogacy but agree that it's right we don't allow poor people to sell their kidneys

@twattymctwatterson - 100% with this.

whatever hard or dangerous work one does, it is done during particular hours, when you are pregnant you are pregnant all the time and subject to the requirements of the purchasers. In some ways it's like prostitution (the comodification of a biological process) but perhaps it's more like a form of slavery. Interestingly, organ harvesting is classified as a form of modern slavery.

Can you genuinely not see the difference between being paid to do work on an oil rig and being paid to grow a baby in your own body? Really?

But surely that’s THEIR decision? Maybe they’d rather be pregnant for nine months than work a shitty office job they hate?

But surely that’s THEIR decision?

No, you are looking at it the wrong way. A woman is entitled to get pregnant and give birth if she decides to. She's not entitled to sell a human being. And other people aren't entitled to commission a child from her and purchase the use of her body.

Intentionally creating a baby that is to be separated from its mother, is immoral. Nobody has a right to children. Nobody is entitled to have a baby. A baby isn’t an oil rig.

Commercial surrogacy is buying/selling another human being. Which is wrong.

The term “surrogacy/surrogate” makes the woman - the mother- invisible. It removes her from the central role, erasing her motherhood. She’s not even dignified with the title of “birth mother”. She’s a vessel.
That’s a terrible minimisation of women.

But If you have a shitty office job you can tell your wanker of a boss to fuck off and leave the building (you’ll probably be skint but you’ll be ok)
If you are selling your baby and at, say, 7mths pregnant what options do you gave if you think your boss is a wanker?

But If you have a shitty office job you can tell your wanker of a boss to fuck off and leave the building (you’ll probably be skint but you’ll be ok
If you are selling your baby and at, say, 7mths pregnant what options do you gave if you think your boss is a wanker

I’ve signed work contracts for 6 months meaning if I didn’t finish the contact I could be sued. This is in an office environment, others I know sign year long contracts.

We need to stop infantilising women and let them make their own decisions. There’s a difference between a woman in India being forced into surrogacy vs a woman in the west who wants to do it as a source of income.

Also I was stuck in a job I hated for TWO YEARS. It took me two years to find another one. And no I couldn’t just tell me boss to fuck off I had bills to pay. Most people living in the real world can’t do that.

I'm finding myself more and more concerned with how people refer to surrogacy, like its an easy way to get a child. One of the men on Queer Eye was talking to another gay man and just said, hey you can have a child! Just find a surrogate. Like it was as simple as going on amazon and finding a female body to rent for 9 months. It was just said with such flippancy, and that's how some people see pregnancy and childbirth, that it could be disconnected from a woman's feelings. So wrong.

here's the guy, Tan France ... He sounds so entitled! "And if I want to have children I want to talk about it and nobody can say it’s wrong and get away with it."

Hithere12
Slaves couldn’t walk out but absolutely anyone else can walk out of a job. Yes they will probably be skint but they are free to leave.

Can you genuinely not see the difference between being paid to do work on an oil rig and being paid to grow a baby in your own body? Really?

I am very anti-surrogacy, even the altruistic kind, but I think this is a little unfair. There really are jobs that are more than just a limited agreement that you can leave at any time, or which are extremely dangerous. The most obvious I think being the military.

If it's really as simple as you say, it should be easy to make a distinction to explain it, rather than implying someone asking a sincere question is just dumb.

Because not only is it “renting” women’s bodies, it is buying babies. Here only altruistic surrogacy is legal, but that does not mean the system isn’t ripe for abuse. The way I have seen the intended parents treat surrogates is pretty gross too. They will absolutely play nice to their face, but outside of ear shot it is clear they just see them as a means to an end. And the amount of control they want....and it does not always stop at the surrogate. They also want to control the narrative.

I hate how it is always portrayed as a feel
good story, when so many of the stories I have seen are reeking if you look behind the curtain. A gay couple in my city went through a surrogate a couple years ago to get their “long dreamed of” baby. There were some complications and the baby was (sadly) born with medical needs requiring - at least initially - round the clock monitoring and breathing assistance. They had chosen a surrogate in another province and while healthcare paid for all the medical needs, they would not pay to move the baby to a hospital closer to the couple in a timeframe acceptable to them. I saw this couple start a go fund me with their story about parenthood being their “lifelong dream” in order to raise around $15,000 to move the baby. Their go fund me was all woe we can’t afford this money that will allow us to move our baby closer to home. I saw people donating money, for some probably money that they could have been used for their own needs, like groceries for the week. They raised the money. Meanwhile, things not known to the general public but I was aware of was: this is a couple earning $500,000+ a year, and a few months after moving that baby they also bought a million dollar house (where average house price is closer to $375,000). Like I said, controlling the narrative.

While all surrogacy bothers me, I am really particularly bothered in surrogacy by the messages particularly around gay men using surrogates - using women’s bodies - there is often a lot of virtue signalling and talk about how wonderful this couple can get a baby with little thought for the women herself other than she is a means to an end.

My brother and his husband want children, but I will not be impressed at all if they go the surrogacy route. I’ve shared my feelings with him on this before but ultimately I have no idea what they might do. I love my brother, and always will, but I know he is NOT an ally to women, we have had some fierce arguments about abortion rights for example (which he is against as a person who would never be personally affected, whereas I am, and have had one). So I will be fierce at him if he opts to use women’s bodies for his own end - not that I would be surprised when he can’t be bothered to accept women ought to be in control of their own bodies.

What troubles me is that isn't it just a different form of the same thing as many jobs? Lots of work involves effectively exchanging use of your body for money

If your client changes their mind, or goes bankrupt, then what happens? If your 'work' is defective, what happens next? If you suffer a miscarriage can you be sued for not producing the results as per the contract?

How is it the same as any other job?

A lot of good points made already.

For me, it reduces poorer women to the status of breeding machines for wealthier men and women. And its purpose is to allow the purchase of children.

Even if you don't oppose it from a feminist perspective, you can oppose it on the grounds of exploitation.

I also have concerns about the child welfare aspects. We're only coming to grips with the fall-out of our adoption processes (I'm Irish and we have a particularly poisoned history in this area). I fear we're storing up similar problems for the future for many surrogate born children.

What of the baby in all of this?

Surrogacy affects more than just the woman giving birth.

To remove a baby from their mother at birth takes a lot of work from social services and there has to be a strong case that the baby is at risk because it's against the baby's best interest to remove them from their mother.

To plan that in advance just isn't best for the baby who knows who their mother is even if the people paying don't see it that way.

It's so open to exploitation by people with the money who want to commission a child.

Radio 4 had a programme on last week, Friday I think, stating that in the UK a child is taken into care every 20 minutes. That is a huge number of children entering the woefully underfunded care system. If people wish to raise a child why not adopt? The idea of purchasing a baby and deliberately removing them from their Mother is selfish & in no way puts the childs interests first.

The surrogate isn’t biologically related to the child though, so is it the same as removing mother and child?
I think people should stop trying to police woman’s body’s so much and let woman Male their own decisions.

That is a huge number of children entering the woefully underfunded care system. If people wish to raise a child why not adopt

Do you feel the same way about IVF?