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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Interesting twitter thread - if you ever wondered what Stephen Whittle took from exchanges here...

98 replies

PlayYouLikeAShark · 25/05/2019 21:21

https://twitter.com/sarahstuartxx/status/1132355559406088193?s=21

Well worth a read (and it's still getting added to so worth watching).

Whittle suggesting the government do what the city of London has done and disregard 50k responses...

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 26/05/2019 16:11

I wonder what Whittle really thinks of the NBs and others from the outer rim of the trans umbrella: people like a Teddy Lord and Meg John, or even those TRAs who seem to make little effort to pass.

Telegraph 2014

'Facebook's 71 gender options come to UK users
Following its successful integration in the US, US Facebook users can choose from one of 50 gender options'
(extract)
"Facebook worked with UK groups Press for Change and Gendered Intelligence to add 21 new options to ensure the list best reflected the ways UK users may choose to describe themselves.

"Gender identities are complex and for many people, describing themselves as just a man or just a woman has always been inadequate," said Professor Stephen Whittle, vice-president at Press for Change. The European Court of Human Rights has upheld the right to develop our gender identity, as key to our personal autonomy.

"By challenging the gender binary, Facebook will finally allow thousands of people to describe themselves as they are now and it will allow future generation of kids to become truly comfortable in their own skins."

Ensuring users feel comfortable being their true selves while using the network is a priority, said Simon Milner, Policy Director, UK Middle East & Africa at Facebook.

"An important part of this is the expression of gender especially when it extends beyond the definitions of just ‘male’ or ‘female.’ Today’s announcement provides significantly more options for people in the UK," he added." (continues)

www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/facebook/10930654/Facebooks-71-gender-options-come-to-UK-users.html

Needmoresleep · 26/05/2019 16:50

I know...but why?

Is it a seat on the gravy train, is he a believer, what does he really think of the Pips Bunces and Meg-Johns? Or the Stephs and Lily’s.

I agree that if you have been through dyphora and fought for acceptance, you may be sympathetic to others with different gender issues, in the way that many gays might be inclined to be sympathetic to trans campaigns.

However not, surely if the cost is the wholesale throwing of women and children under the bus. For whom. Cross-dressers. The “K”s. (K is kink in the Stonewall alphabet soup.) Some of the campaigning feels like people campaigning for no boundaries. Grooming from an early age and the dismantling of safeguarding. Where are his boundaries?

It is reassuring that several transsexuals have spoken up about the risks. Whittle seems bright enough. Why don’t they see it. Or don’t they care?

VickyEadie · 26/05/2019 16:56

I think Whittle has embraced misogyny in a big way. I also think that Whittle loves being the centre of attention.

Despite being a 'professor', I don't think Whittle is all that intelligent, but that's just my opinion based on the things Whittle has said.

R0wantrees · 26/05/2019 16:58

However not, surely if the cost is the wholesale throwing of women and children under the bus. For whom. Cross-dressers. The “K”s. (K is kink in the Stonewall alphabet soup.) Some of the campaigning feels like people campaigning for no boundaries. Grooming from an early age and the dismantling of safeguarding. Where are his boundaries?

The intended end point of those who pushed through the Yogyikarta principles was the ending of all sexed markers.

Sheila Jeffries is the person to watch on this.
She has made a number of speeches.

StopThePlanet · 26/05/2019 17:08

donquixotedelamancha

pen.org/everyone-is-a-little-trans/

Does anyone enjoy Vogon poetry?

My thoughts exactly 😆 - so fucking horribly dense and unimaginative, the writer would fit in with the Vogons in every conceivable way.

OldCrone · 26/05/2019 17:10

Over 55,000 people responded to the consultation, but there only around 5,000 trans people in the UK.

Whittle does seem remarkably confused about numbers. 5,000 is the number of trans people with a GRC. They don't need GRA reform, because the system as it is clearly worked for them, so it will continue to work for the small number of people like them, a few hundred a year, who apply for, and get, a GRC.

The argument for reform was that there are about 600,000 people who are 'trans' in the UK, but most of them are not eligible for a GRC under the current system. How does Whittle know that the 50,000 or so who responded to the consultation aren't part of that 600,000? And obviously, allowing anyone who says they are trans to get a GRC, and be legally recognised as the opposite sex, affects everyone in the UK, particularly women and children who could be put at risk from men abusing the system, so it is quite right that we should all have a say in any change to the law.

Is Whittle really that stupid, or is it just an act?

Manderleyagain · 26/05/2019 18:14

I thought there were more responses to the gra consultation. Maybe there has been a mistake somewhere along the line - either confusing the numbers or confusing the two consultations.

Needmoresleep · 26/05/2019 18:23

I realise the problem lies with me.

Some sort of conditioning which expects transmen to be "nice", whilst keeping a much more open mind with transwomen. I am then pleased by those who seem to be empathetic and thoughtful, standards I instinctively seem to apply to women.

Whittle does not seem to suffer from niceness, or concern for the most vulnerable. I don't know why I expected it. Perhaps they are to be congratulated for transitioning out of female "niceness".

JackyHolyoake · 26/05/2019 18:32

The European Court of Human Rights has upheld the right to develop our gender identity, as key to our personal autonomy. Stephen Whittle.

This is interesting. Since "gender identity" is not defined in any meaningful way anywhere in law. Does Whittle cite where and when this happened or is it a fantasy on Whittle's part?

Unless there is a reference from ECHR this statement should not be believed, I think.

JackyHolyoake · 26/05/2019 18:40

In Westminster last week, Maria Miller MP seemed to be in agreement with Karen Ingala Smith's point that it would be 'helpful' for government to define 'women' for women's refuge policies.

The Equality Act 2010 already defines women as females of any age.

The Exceptions in Schedule 3, sections 26, 27 and 28 already permit the exclusion of male transitioners from those services.

What needs to happen is for government to add to the Equality Act by stating that all the Exceptions are the default position and that any service which wants to opt out of that default position will have to demonstrate that any proposed opt out is a proportionate means to achieve a legitimate aim.

OldCrone · 26/05/2019 18:52

This is interesting. Since "gender identity" is not defined in any meaningful way anywhere in law. Does Whittle cite where and when this happened or is it a fantasy on Whittle's part?

Whittle is probably referring to the Yogyakarta principles, which is widely cited as 'international best practice', and has been unthinkingly taken on board as such by many government bodies, for example the Scottish government in their GRA consultation. ECHR may well have decided that Yogyakarta's 'gender identity' is an important part of everyone's identity.

As R0wantrees mentioned, Sheila Jeffries has talked about this.

JackyHolyoake · 26/05/2019 19:09

Whittle is probably referring to the Yogyakarta principles

Whittle is one of the authors of the Yogyakata Principles which, for the record, have no legal standing anywhere in the world and have been ignored by most countries and the UN.

Sheila Jeffreys is indeed our expert on this.

happydappy2 · 26/05/2019 19:10

Whittle also knows the only war worth winning is getting a labour government elected, as they support self ID.
This is something quite terrifying.

Needmoresleep · 26/05/2019 20:13

But why are they doing it. What is their motivation.

Even if they had managed to sneak things through, it was absolutely certain that there would be pushback once things started going wrong. And things would go wrong if safeguarding frameworks were dismantled.

Staying the right side of the MN mods, I think it is fair to say that some leading TRAs have unusual pasts or pastimes. (Getting their willy out at bus stops, or the stuff that gets reported on Kiwi Farms.) Certainly not all, and plenty of trans-people who understand the need for safeguarding and have spoken up against self-ID.

Whittle does not want access to women's spaces, and presumably is not a threat to men in their spaces. Why then can't they take a wider approach and acknowledge that transpeople live in and seek acceptance from the wider society. This uncompromising approach risks losing much more than you gain. This man is an academic after all.

OldCrone · 26/05/2019 20:13

Whittle is one of the authors of the Yogyakata Principles which, for the record, have no legal standing anywhere in the world and have been ignored by most countries and the UN.

But that doesn't stop governments and organisations from referring to it as 'international best practice', which gets all those who haven't read up on this thinking that it does have legal standing. When governments and trusted organisations start referring to it as though it has legal standing, some people will think it does.

I just found this article, based on a talk by Sheila Jeffries, which sets out the problems with Yogyakarta.

Also this FOI request, where the Scottish Government deny that they have "adopted and promoted" the Yogyakarta principles, despite the wording of the GRA consultation.

The Scottish Government expressed the view in the consultation that the Yogyakarta Principles, in particular Principle 3 (right to recognition before the law), embody best practice in relation to legal gender recognition processes permitting trans people to seek legal recognition in the gender in which they live.

JackyHolyoake · 26/05/2019 20:17

But that doesn't stop governments and organisations from referring to it as 'international best practice', which gets all those who haven't read up on this thinking that it does have legal standing.

It may be that lawyers and others have now advised governments and organisations that YP is a wish list. Perhaps this is why Scottish govt has back-tracked?

R0wantrees · 26/05/2019 20:29

But why are they doing it. What is their motivation.

Needmoresleep you can read many interviews with Stephen Whittle which give some insight. Stephen Whittle has also featured in a number of documentaries.

for example 2007 GUardian:
'Stephen Whittle: Body of work
The law lecturer tells Chris Arnot how being a transsexual has put him at the forefront of a political movement'
(extract)
Stephen Whittle knew from an early age that he wanted to teach. He also knew that he wanted to be a man. There was one rather fundamental problem, however. He had been born female. "I imagined myself becoming one of those spinsterish teachers I'd read about in Bunty, in tweed skirts and twin sets," he grins, discreetly dabbing cappuccino froth from his slightly greying beard." (continues)

"At one time, we transsexuals were what other people wiped off the bottom of their shoes," he says. This is a man who knows what it's like to lose jobs on the basis of what he is rather than what he could do, a former self-employed builder who took a part-time law degree to further his business interests and then discovered that he could use the law to "fight back", as he puts it, against the injustices he feels have dogged him for most of his life. This is a husband and father who went as far as the European Court of Human Rights so that his long-term partner could be impregnated through artificial insemination and his name could be on their children's birth certificate.

"I'm just a bolshie bastard with an overwhelming desire for equality and justice," he says. (continues)

It seems unlikely that his father would have been as generous, had he still been alive. He was a representative of the old Britain, the old Manchester. "He was very much of the view that girls were girls and women were women," says Whittle. "I remember being on a holiday when I was about 13 and he hit my mother because she came out of the caravan wearing slacks and refused to change back into a dress."

By that time, the family were beginning to prosper, moving to middle-class Withington from the council estate of Wythenshawe. Whittle Sr, having fallen into a vat of dye at a chemical depot, was offered the choice of compensation or a desk job. He took the desk job and, despite being barely literate, discovered a hidden talent for technical drawing. Eventually he became manager of the plant, while his wife became a medical secretary at the Christie hospital. The middle of five children, Whittle envied his brothers but inherited his parents' drive to get on. In later life, that drive was fed by the generous doses of testosterone he persuaded his GP to prescribe. "I became quite feisty," he admits." (continues)
www.theguardian.com/society/2007/apr/17/socialcare.highereducationprofile

see thread:
[www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3436955-Stephen-Whittle

nauticant · 26/05/2019 20:44

Whittle does seem remarkably confused about numbers.
...
Is Whittle really that stupid, or is it just an act?

It's an act. One of the constants in this, that we see all the time, is that the number of trans people is very high when the argument needs high numbers (we're currently seeing claims of more than a million trans people in the UK) and very low when the argument needs low numbers.

The more this goes on the more I realise that many of the active spokespeople for the community are habitual liars.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 26/05/2019 21:56

Is it a seat on the gravy train, is he a believer, what does he really think of the Pips Bunces and Meg-Johns? Or the Stephs and Lily’s.

If we are thinking about the same Steph, don't they have a GRC?

I think whittle likes their money and their willingness to court publicity.

Traditionally, TS would have limited employment opportunities, in part to avoid been outed. Many of those mentioned have access to money.

R0wantrees · 26/05/2019 22:23

2014 Stephen Whittle as 'superhero' on CBBC, 'I am Leo'

71,417 views

TemporaryPermanent · 27/05/2019 00:38

Steven Whittle describes a sexist abusive father who beat any person sharing SW's sex who did not conform to his sexist expectations.

Sarah Brown ditto, plus homophobia as well as sexism.
Paris Lees ditto.
Aimee Challenor's father...

And we are surprised that people wish to escape those expectations laid on their endangered sex, and the life-threatening consequences of failing to conform to stereotypes.

BickerinBrattle · 27/05/2019 04:55

It is quite common for the abused to side with the abusers -- after all, that's who they see holds power, unlike them the powerless.

It can be so very shameful to feel powerless. It can be easy to start to see the powerless as deserving of their fate. Unlike the powerful. And those who align with the powerful. Or step into the shoes of the powerful.

FannyCann · 27/05/2019 10:03

As regards this "From the twitter thread Whittle gave an example of transwoman who had been put through the mill because obtaining a GRC would mean having to admit to their husband they weren't born a female."

I offer an excerpt from a book I am reading about soldier life.

Interesting twitter thread - if you ever wondered what Stephen Whittle took from exchanges here...
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