Gender non-conforming - means???

[3timeslucky]

Given gender is the playing out of behaviours and presentation that society has traditionally expected of a given sex, do the vast majority of women match that description? So we wear what we like (including shock horror trousers and flat shoes), we cut our hair as we see fit, choose education, opt for a range of careers, participate in sports once considered unseemly etc etc etc (and conversely men change nappies, make school lunches, cook, clean and even venture into careers once the preserve of women). So the vast majority of us do not fully conform to gender expectations.

So does gender non-conforming actually mean anything?

Prompted by the discussion and Gentleman Jack. Definitely a lesbian. But bucking the social sex-based expectations of her time so by my understanding she didn't conform to gender expectations.

Is this just another hijacked word that has a meaning quite separate to its meaning and is therefore quite meaningless

I would describe myself as gender non-conforming - due to my dress sense, interests, and life in general.

However I've been told that I can't possibly call myself gender conforming because I'm straight and have children - apparently these two things are so massively conforming that they outweigh anything else (and we're not to mention the 30 years before I had those kids...). I think that person just had a massive case of not wanting to be boring like a mum though.

I see gender non-conforming to include exactly the sorts of things you describe, women choosing not to confirm to stereotyped feminine behaviours and men choosing not to confirm to stereotypical masculine behaviours. Most people are gender non conforming to a degree, it's called having a personality, no one is 100 stereotypical apart from maybe, Jordan, the Kardashian, etc but they're really just playing into the role for gain.
I would however reserve "gender non conforming" for extremes, not just say a woman who has short hair.

It's important to recognise gender non conformity in children because it can lead to being bullied by other children which can be a great source of distress. These children will be more likely to be seduced by the "trans" brainwashing too.

I'm physically attracted to rugby player types but in terms of character I'm drawn to men who are openly loving and in touch with their emotions. My DH was a wonderful SAHF and immensely nurturing. I would never have built up a successful business without his constant encouragement.

I very much like gender non conforming men. My DF and my DBs are very nurturing and gentle too. So finding men like this is part of my love map.

I think we probably have to look at conforming to gender in a few layers.

One thing though is that some things people mention a lot are probably not really factors, trousers being one. Short hair another - I think hairstyles tend to read as masculine or feminine but length is more variable really for both women and men. Some jobs are no longer really indicators either, doctors being a good example.

I think a lot of culturally masculine or feminine things are somewhat soft - it's almost more about how much you do overall, rather than each individual thing tallied up. I don't think anyone is totally conforming. The most "masculine" person I know is my cousin's husband, but of course he still doesn't choose the "masculine" thing all the time.

I am a bit like the poster above, I mostly have been considered non-conforming in my younger days, but now people think I am. It's a bit weird.

Conforming or not to sex stereotypes is on a spectrum I'd say. I would say I am gender non-conforming because I am a female who doesn't shave, is attracted to women, wears clothing from the supposedly "men's" department, and I don't have some of the qualities and interests stereotypically associated with women. In other ways I do conform, though, because I have a personality which is many faceted (e.g. I'm caring and largely engaged in care/community work). Nobody is completely gender conform (or very few) but those who are much less conforming than average can have a hard time - people do notice and penalise you for it.

My feeling is that the ultimate gender-conforming woman would be a combination of a Stepford Wife & Barbie.

One thing though is that some things people mention a lot are probably not really factors, trousers being one. Short hair another

I often think in the lists of things which are supposed to prove how gender non- conforming posters are , are lists of quite ordinary things that some people do and it's really no big deal.

I'm very gender conforming in appearance and clothes. I never wear any clothes which are masculine or which could be worn equally by a man or a woman with no comment so I don't wear jeans , trainers, anoraks, t- shirts.

I don't however think I'm not gender conforming just because I have always worked full time in a profession which was Male dominated when I entered it ; I have never been or wanted to be a stay at home mother; I didn't change my name; I don't iron shirts and have never once thought it was my responsibility to buy Christmas presents for my husband's family. And I don't hate sport because I'm gender conforming but because it bores me rigid. All of that is just me- none of it is "gender non- conforming"

I would personally say that gender non conforming is just those who differ from typical by several measures eg it's not just short hair, jeans and loving football, but more fundamental eg being the breadwinner l, wearing a tuxedo instead of a dress to formal events, refusing to marry perhaps. It's a spectrum of course - you could argue that choosing to go into the military is non conforming for a woman or a midwife for a man because they are not our societal norms but things change and it's ok not to conform. I'm proud my DD's are in some part non conforming

Something I have noticed when I worked in a very male dominated environment is that I was more likely to be very feminine in my dress (when I wasn't in uniform), or even just felt more feminine compared the the rather masculine environment. And not in the sense that people were going out of their way to make me feel different, but being surrounded by men all the time made me more aware of being different in some ways. Quite a few other women I talked to in that job had a similar experience, they tended to be non-conforming before, but became more so, maybe even felt more comfortable with it than they had before.

I also think in some cases "conforming" might ot be the right word. You probably won't meet as many female firefighters, but that may not have much to do with conforming or not. It's just very physically demanding work.

but more fundamental eg .... wearing a tuxedo instead of a dress to formal events

There is nothing gender non conforming in wearing a dinner suit rather than a dress to a formal event Far from it - it's an extremely feminine look. I should know- I used to do it.

Having a personality, as far as I can tell.

On Tumblr and its ilk: GNC largely means "female who dresses in a masculine way".

In real life: People just wearing whatever the fuck they want without needing to have the Town Crier formally announce it every day.

Yes, it does often seem to mean what I would have called androgyny at one point. Women who like sharp suits and barber shop hair. Nothing wrong with it, it's my current mode of dress, but I'm not sure how 'non conforming' it is to simply adopt the gendered norms of the opposite sex.

I was thinking the other day about whether drag was gender non conformity or not, given that yes, it's men doing it, but the gendered presentation of 'feminine' is very rigid.

However I've been told that I can't possibly call myself gender non-conforming because I'm straight and have children

Well, that would imply that being gay is gender non-conforming - which it kind of is.

.....would having children and not being 'straight' count?

All sounds like retrograde nonsense to me. Free personal expression, even if it goes against gender norms, is all that 'gender non-conforming' means.

All sounds like retrograde nonsense to me.

Oh, it absolutely is. However you define gender it's a load of old-fashioned, misogynist bollocks that would be better abolished altogether.

IMO everyone is gender non conforming in some way, as noone is a walking stereotype. Maybe with the exception of that woman who keeps having surgeries to look like barbie, however, I am sure even she has some interests or whatever that are not feminine.

Mind, it seems only youngsters who are woke can call themselves gender non-conforming. I was called bigoted not long ago for saying it. Was also called a dinosaur for saying I am not 'cis' and if I had to pick one of the many gender labels it would be 'a-gender' as I have no gender identity. Apparently, I am clearly cis and just taking the piss, so much for take everyone at their word eh?

I think this is why TRAs are so bothered when they realise that Mumsnetters don't just spend all their time discussing prams & lipstick. We're refusing to sit in their nice little cis box.

Well yes, and I think it says so much when the wokesters refuse to allow women to reject cis as a label - for all their guff about self determination etc. they can't help but reveal their bigotry and sense of superiority over women in general.

Just as T**F is not a neutral term (most clearly shown by it's common pairing with threats), cis is pure unthinking denigration. They don't even realise they are doing it, which is why when you explain you find it offensive they look so puzzled.

"But you are cis. You are obviously someone I perceive to be less interesting and special and to have an identity that is easily gauged by another. You are run of the mill, unimportant. You are not like the special ones."