No one talking about the fact that Alabama have outlawed abortion?

[Bedsidedrawer]

25 white, republican men deciding authority on women's bodies...

And yet you have posted on nothing about it.

Thats par for the course really. People moan that we aren't discussing the right stuff, while not discussing the stuff they reckon we should be discussing (even though we are discussing it..)

quiet is there not the additional fear that they will be arrested after taking an unexpected journey out of state and be asked to explain themselves?

Because white men are the predominant factor in the patriarchy.

No men are the predominant factor in the patriarchy - the clue is in the word 'patriarchy'.

I don't understand it. Surely they wouldn't want poor black women having fatherless babies . (Their attitude not mine)

That said, I do have sympathy with their view that a life is a life, the most fundamental right. It's not illogical. It's not practical or humane, but not illogical.

Three interesting articles from the U.S. online journal Vox on what is happening with the proposed abortion laws.

Elizabeth Warren just announced her abortion platform. It’s aggressive. It has little chance in Congress. But Warren is one of the few Democratic candidates with a clear reproductive rights plan.

www.vox.com/2019/5/17/18628684/abortion-elizabeth-warren-platform-roe-v-wade

Abortion in America, explained in 10 facts
As anti-abortion laws sweep the country, a lot of people have questions. Here are some answers. By Anna North

www.vox.com/2019/5/16/18628002/abortion-ohio-alabama-georgia-law-bill-details

Alabama’s near-total abortion ban is the ultimate elevation of the “unborn” over women. The lack of a rape or incest exemption is the culmination of a narrative that values the “sanctity of the unborn” over pregnant people.

This article gives a good informative historical overview of abortion laws in the U.S.

www.vox.com/first-person/2019/5/17/18629332/alabama-missouri-abortion-ban-2019-rape-incest-exemption

Thanks Otepoti for those interesting articles. It is clear the Alabama ruling is meant to be challenged. They want this to go to the Supreme Court. Whatever one's views on abortion it is also clear once a woman or girl becomes pregnant she vanishes, her needs, her wishes, her situation is secondary to the fact she is pregnant. There are plenty of women who support reversing Roe v Wade, they and the men who vote for abortion laws that restrict access even when Rape and Incest is involved are lacking in all human empathy and compassion. Incest is rape, whether it is by a brother, father, grandfather or uncle. If Roe v Wade is overturned in the Supreme Court women will come out in the hundreds of millions.

Janice Turner is talking about it today in the Times:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-clock-is-turning-back-on-women-s-rights-x9n9mvqrw?shareToken=9e34c18b9527f55a5497edad4e27b884

Corey Booker nails his colours to the mast.

^Cory Booker: An Open Letter to Men on Abortion
The presidential hopeful urges men to support women’s fundamental freedoms^.

Extract

Women of color, low-income women, and women living in rural areas in states that have restricted and sought to criminalize abortion will be disproportionately affected. They may be unable to afford to travel to a different state—which could also mean missing work and arranging for childcare even while enduring lengthy 72-hour waiting periods—in order to get the health care they need. They can’t afford to pack up and leave—and we won’t let them weather this storm alone,

The restriction and attempted criminalization of abortion doesn’t just violate a woman’s rights while she is pregnant, they strip her of the right to plan for her and her family’s future

www.gq.com/story/cory-booker-open-letter-to-men-on-abortion

In this case I wonder whether the fact that the people who voted this through were mostly men is a bit of a red herring.
I read a Guardian article yesterday that included some statistics on abortion by country. It stated that around 70% of Trump supporters (men and women) are in favour of an abortion ban.
To me, this is a symptom of another problem in America that goes far beyond the misogynistic men in power.

Good pointsunset and it's not just Evangelical Protestantism. I remember in the run-up to the 2016 election a rather surprised TV interviewer discovering that the two Hispanic women he was talking to intended to vote Trump simply because they were Catholic and anti abortion.

As a man I disagree with this legislation. The only thing I’d say to go against the grain here is that there seems to be huge focus on this old white men thing as if it affects things. Some women can argue that men shouldn’t be making these decisions which is fair enough. However the research I read (and there was an article in the Guardian about this) is that in the Southern states mentioned women are far more likely to be pro life than the men so that if the decisions were left to women only the consequences would be even more draconian. It’s from 2014 but doubt things have changed that much www.theguardian.com/science/the-lay-scientist/2014/apr/30/why-are-women-more-opposed-to-abortion?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Sorry got my wires crossed and the article was actually about the UK but see quite below

So around 24 to 35% of men want to put more restrictions on abortion, against 43 to 59% of women – a consistent gap of around 20 percentage points. That raises some pretty big implications, the most obvious being that if it were left to women to vote on the issue, with men out of the picture, there’s a good chance that the result would be in favour of restricting abortion. On the flip side, if only men voted, they’d almost certainly vote in favour of women’s reproductive rights.

If women want to demand men take a step back and leave it to them I will do so but don’t think the debate people have about abortion is a men controlling women thing

Frankly, given that there is as much chance for men to vote for abortion access from motives which are actually quite self-serving, I'm very much of the opinion that the men who support women should do so in a broader way than just supporting abortion access, because I've often had conversations with men who couldn't give a shit about improving the societal aspects that often mean women feel abortion is the only choice available, but they think that because they support abortion access they have a right to be lionized as 'pro-woman'.

I have no real interest in centering male voices in a discussion about an issue that is centred on the bodies of women, whatever those men argue for.

Nowforni.uk
We must try and resolve the one situation that we do at least have some control over.

I agree that there will be quite large self serving element to pro abortion men. I’m not pretending to be superior. I just felt some stats would be useful.

I do have an opinion (and feel entitled to have one like any person) but I usually keep them to myself because I acknowledge that women’s opinions should be at the forefront and take precedence.

It’s when these laws etc are attributed to ‘sexist men’ this obviously then draws me into somewhere I don’t want to be because this implicated me (as a man) for being responsible for this even though I don’t harbour such opinions.

I’m happy to leave it to women to decide this subject. The research I mentioned was just countering if it wasn’t for men this wouldn’t happen and it seems the opposite

It’s when these laws etc are attributed to ‘sexist men’ this obviously then draws me into somewhere I don’t want to be because this implicated me (as a man) for being responsible for this even though I don’t harbour such opinions.

Forgive me if I hear echoes of the complaints about the Gillette ad in your paragraph here. If you're not a sexist man then the women talking about sexist men are not referring to you so you have no reason to feel defensive.

I do feel defensive. I can’t logically see any difference when all people of a certain group are attributed something (even men / women who make up 50% of the population and aren’t minorities). I’ve never understood the derision around NAMALT.

I bet if someone said black people in the UK represent 10% of the population and are responsible for 60% of all knife crime (I made these stats up but know it’s heavily disproportionate) there’d be loads of people saying it’s only a minority of people and not all black men are like that you racist fuck.

I don’t want to get into arguments about abortion rights. I probably have the same thoughts as most on here but like I said I’m happy to leave it to women when as a man I’ll never be in the position of being pregnant.

I am an advocate of saying ladies it’s over to you. Just don’t blame me personally. Some men yes. Blame them if you want (alongside women with the same views). But I have not problem with NAMALT like I’d have no problem about saying not all Muslims are fanatics, not all Jews are tight fisted, not all Scotsmen are alcoholics etc

Whatever. I'll reserve my concern for the injured feelings and actual physical harm that comes the way of the women affected by this discussion and horrible leglislation and leave you to nurse your wounded ego.

Caucho - are you, as a man, coming onto a thread about women's right to choose, and attempting to me-rail it? Because that's how your posts look to me.

Beyond making that observation, I'm not going to engage with you any further, because frankly you are not coming across to me as posting in good faith.

I’ve never understood the derision around NAMALT

Because it takes away from the topic at hand and just derails any conversation as then people feel the need to start going on about how some men they know are nice, or whatever. When, noone thinks ALL men are like that, so its just a ridiculous argument that goes in circles that most feminists have had a hundred times before so its pointless. And it gets brought up constantly. Even in discussions about abortion seemingly.

The focus on it being 25 men, is because it was 25 men. Even if more women are 'pro-life' (I prefer anti-choice tbh), this vote was still a bunch of men, people this will never affect.

So when someone offers a contrary view they’re not acting in good faith? I thought this place was better than that and the no platform type crew. I’ve offered no opinion on abortion laws because I’m a man and we should just STFU but if anyone is interested I’m very pro body autonomy and believe women should have choices (I don’t think expect any praise for this nothing statement and people might say bully for you but just pointing out I’m not trying to derail anything or supporting any of these laws). It is fact that the this new stance was brought in by exclusively old white men. This cannot be defended by most people’s standards. It’s why I advocate leaving it to women. But, and there’s a big but, expecting states like Alabama and Georgia to come up with a different position by leaving it to only the women of Alabama and Georgia and not men is simply not true. I’m sorry if people take issue with this. I’m not in the firing line and doesn’t affect me in the same manner. So blame it all on the guys and demand it should be left to the gals and I won’t object and just see what happens

What astonishes me more than anything is that nobody in the UK - well, nobody on my facebook / instagram feeds, or on MN as far as I can see, which is known to be used predominantly (not exclusively, I know) by UK posters - is talking about the fact that abortion is still illegal in Northern Ireland i.e. part of the UK

Also closer to home, abortion was re-criminalised in Poland a couple of years ago

Obviously what is happening in America is dreadful, but why are UK-based people not making more of a fuss about the same situation here??

There's been a lot of discussion about it OP. With varying opinions about it.

Such a sad day for women, and men too actually. I don’t believe the majority of (normal) men would want choice taken away either for their partners/ daughters/ sisters/ mothers.

It has been all over here and social media though.

I think what people not living in the US won’t realise is that not only can you not have an abortion. Childbirth can cost thousands in medical bills and there is basically no maternity leave provision.

Absolutely barbaric.

Rights of women being taken away. Women will die. Women will suffer. Children who have been abused will be forced to give birth. 25 men have voted to do this to millions of women.

A man: NAMALT.

Fucking really?