LBC debate on S Times foster children article

[BuzzShitbagBobbly]

I have been suspecting Tom Swarbrick of GC views for a while, but he has been very low key about it unsurprising with a James O'Brien as a colleague

I have just listened (11pm, Sunday) to a brilliant exchange with Andrew Gilligan and Ben Butterworth about AG's article on the foster children in the Sunday Times today.

Andrew calmly and coherently dismantled several of Ben's outraged reactions, including the suicide quote.

Tom is just starting the phone in now and the first text he read out was about being clear about gender vs sex; and how children of 3 are children!

Currently a tw (70 years old) who says they "knew" they were a girl because they liked dressing up and doing laundry with their mum (yet then goes on to endorse watchful waiting for children till older)

Highly recommend listen again.

Thanks will have a listen. Anybody who is so entrenched in their 'side' of the debate that they will defend the transing of a 3 year old foster child really ought to reflect on their values.

Every caller is "WTF?"

And then saying "Let kids be kids! This is child abuse"

People are peaking in real time.

It's still on, hit the "listen" button here: www.lbc.co.uk/

Ah, spoke too soon! Someone was talking a lot of sense about the medical transition of kids and how they'll likely be suing in 10 years, but they were wrapping up.

He just said they'd leave it there, but he did say they'll come back to the topic, when it's in the news again.

I'll have to listen when it's on catchup.

Who was that other bloke at the end, does anyone know?

That was incredible. This is what happens when ordinary people find out the reality of what is being peddled.

The foster mother needs locking up though.

Tom S is getting a note of appreciation from me in the morning.

Just listened to this on catch up. AG was excellent, especially re suicide stats and how the debate is now such that even reporting facts is 'transphobic'.

Not a single solitary word from the TRAs on his twitter feed. I suppose it's hard to be the first one to defend the plainly indefensible...
twitter.com/TomSwarbrick1/status/1127673238660763653

Hopefully this is the Listen Again link. Starts at 1:04:12
www.lbc.co.uk/radio/aod/?episodeId=Q2F0Y2h1cEVwaXNvZGU6OTE5MTA=

Even Harrop seems to have kept quiet on this one. He's usually the first to jump on a Times story, maybe the transing of a likely traumatised 3 year old is too much even for him. I've noticed that with TRAs, anything they know is bollocks they just ignore, never publicly contradict though.

Well, let's be charitable Bluestitch, they have so much to do, maybe they hadn't heard this item.

But obviously with the Eyes on this board diligently reporting back, I'm sure they'll get right on this blatant and horrific transphobia tout de suite.

Just listened. First caller was a 70 year old transsexual who had had full surgery some years ago. She said she had ‘always known’ and preferred to dress up and hang out the laundry with her mother rather than play ‘boys games’. At school she found boys rough and uncouth. But the question I would have liked to ask is this - if you had been brought up in a different family/environment where your mother went out to work and your dad stayed at home with you when you were small, (increasingly common) and you found a group of school friends that weren’t rough and uncouth and dressing up was something boys and girls could do without judgement, would you have felt the same? So were you just rejecting the gender stereotypes attached to your sex? I’m which case the problem is the stereotypes not you.

Benjamin Butterworth knows nothing about child development, consequences of abuse /trauma or Safeguarding.

The first caller Barbara also seems to have little understanding about child development or Safeguarding.

Both this caller & Benjamin Butterworth have spoken about their memories of their childhood experiences.

Neither male seems especially able to reflect beyond projection of themselves.

I couldn't get beyond Barbara. It's all stereotypes. Every last bit.

I feel sorry for them that they were told over and over how wrong it was to like to smell flowers and help their mother with the laundry and how right it was to be uncouth and spit.

It's blindingly, dazzlingly, obvious that this person is rejecting stereotypes.

And the worst part about it is they are still, one hundred percent, immersed in them. They absolutely think that the reason why they like to smell flowers and didn't want to spit is because they are female.

It's sexism and lack of intellectual rigour, in equal measure.

I've listened to so many people, saying exactly the same thing.

I truly struggle to understand how they don't get it.

I think Tom is quite GC but clearly being very careful about what he says.
All I ever hear from TRAs is stereotypes.

I think Tom is quite GC but clearly being very careful about what he says.

My thoughts listening were that he clearly responded strongly to the issues of identifying a three year old child as transgender because he has children of his own who are two & four.
Whether this was a jolt of realisation which leads to further questioning or that he already has wider understanding and concerns but was beingcautious in voicing them wasn't clear.

I agree R0.

He's making a distinction, because he has kids of his own and understands what they're like, between children and adults.

The next stage is questioning why middle aged adults insist they knew when they were three. When clearly, he doesn't think you can.

There's also the big disconnect between people who have actually raised children, and people who haven't. The former know full well you do not give them everything they want.

Whilst the latter don't get that at all.

The next stage is questioning why middle aged adults insist they knew when they were three.

recommend this thread by Kate Alcock (Psychology lecturer Lancaster University) on well established understanding of how children develop an understanding of their and others' sex so the difference between boys and girls:

Its from the Lancaster Resister's recent meeting:

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1122570548549226496.html

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3551115-Gender-Identity-Safeguarding-Children-and-Young-People-For-Women-Lancashire

Yes, my three year old is lately taking delight in learning about pronouns and how they apply to men and women. When he was younger, he would say "I'm a boy" and "I'm a girl" in equal measure, but is starting to get it. I think a lot of the confusion is all in the hair!

Boys and girls get very confused about the hair issue because adults get confused about it with children. I can't say how many times people have thought my son was a girl because he has long ringlet curls. I can dress him in the bluest shirt and the most boyish trousers imaginable. Or a little suit! And people still mistake him for a girl.

When kids see adults make those kinds of errors in judgment, it becomes very easy to think hair is the defining characteristic.

And now that the trans lobby has made it taboo to tell children plainly what the real differentiators are, or that those differentiators are significant to human lives in many ways, what else are they going to do but grasp at things like hair? So-and-so was a girl, but now she's a boy and her hair is short. Have that be the story at school, and a few kids who've been dying for a style change will see social contagion spread to them.

from the talk by Katie Alcock (linked above):

"I thought that people might be interested in the videos I used in my talk last night.
Here's James, showing what 3 year olds think is the difference between boys and girls:
www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=_BFDgO_y9cc

At this age and until quite a bit older children think that appearance and reality are equivalent and if one changes the other does - in other areas as well as in individual's sex. This 4 year old thinks the real contents of the pot are evident to others.

Thankfully children get over this though some not before 8 or 9. Knowing about biology helps (i.e. who has what genitals). The 4yo doesn't understand that sex is constant. The 9 yo is struggling not to say "well doh"

But during this phase children are saying they want to wear clothes associated with the opposite sex and OF COURSE they think this makes them BE the opposite sex.
www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=Wi-2WqEiAn0

Typical child development isn't much taught to medical students (in fact I was one briefly). A psychiatrist with an interest in autism may well educate themselves on all the current theories, and a delay in the ability to distinguish between appearance and reality is one facet.

But (though I don't know all about psychiatrist training) you don't always get every relevant finding brought up even in straight psychology degrees - we simply know too much about how children think to fit it all in!"

Boys and girls get very confused about the hair issue because adults get confused about it with children.

Not just adult confusion though.
Its very powerful when a child is surrounded by adults who have strong beliefs in sex-based stereotype conformity and/or sexist/homophobic ideas about what girls and boys should do or how they should present.

Spectator article following this case:

'The danger of letting children transition gender too early'
Leyla Sanai
concludes:
"Even so, social transition is not absolutely free of trauma. If a child’s name has been changed and he/she has adopted the social identity of the other gender, playing sports with them at school and entering into their social set, there will be significant psychological and social implications if they change their mind. And most children diagnosed with suspected gender dysphoria do change their minds. Most studies show the percentage of children who change their mind about being the wrong gender by the time they reach adulthood is around 60 to 80 per cent.

In November 2018, a senior staff member at the NHS Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) at London’s Tavistock Clinic, raised concerns that some children were not being adequately assessed to ascertain whether they had true gender dysphoria before referral to the adult service for hormone treatment. The anxiety was whether there might be other social or psychological factors that could have led to diagnoses being made inaccurately. Several parents agreed with the concerns raised by the senior staff member, and GIDS launched a review. But little seemed to change, because in February 2019, the governor of the NHS trust which runs the clinic resigned, citing its ‘blinkered’ attitude to doctors who had expressed similar concerns. An Oxford University associate professor of sociology Michael Biggs, has also accused GIDS of suppressing negative results of hormone treatment, and said his own research suggested that after a year of treatment ‘a significant increase’ was found in patients born female who had transitioned to male confiding in staff that they self-harmed.

These fears seem eminently sensible to doctors and laypeople alike. It has been shown that some parents encourage children to change gender when in reality, the children are simply gay. There is no doubt that gender dysphoria exists, and there are people who genuinely and persistently feel as if they are in the wrong body. But since the majority of children with suspected gender dysphoria don’t have the condition once they reach puberty, might it not be more sensible to work on broadening society’s outlook? Allowing children to play with whatever toys they want, or indulging their desire to dress as they wish, without telling them that they are the wrong gender. Let’s change the narrow-minded judgement of ‘male’ and ‘female’ activities before changing our children’s bodies."

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/05/the-danger-of-letting-children-transition-gender-too-early/

Its very powerful when a child is surrounded by adults who have strong beliefs in sex-based stereotype conformity and/or sexist/homophobic ideas about what girls and boys should do or how they should present.

That should be carved in stone.

Hell, subliminal advertising works like a dream, nano seconds of product placement is effective to the tune of millions of pounds.

The flick of an eyebrow, a frown, a cross word - all have a massive impact forming a child's understanding of all sorts of stuff.

Consistent and comprehensive "beliefs in sex-based stereotype conformity" will have a devastatingly profound effect.

The transwoman who called into the show transitioned decades ago and is still entrenched in the belief that men can't appreciate flowers.

Jackie G reen had all their toys (all their bloody toys!) thrown out because Jackie was the 'wrong sex' for them.

Jackie G reen had all their toys (all their bloody toys!) thrown out because Jackie was the 'wrong sex' for them.

This still gets me. I can't imagine the trauma of beloved toys being deliberately thrown away.

(And yes, I know there are worse things).

Its very powerful when a child is surrounded by adults who have strong beliefs in sex-based stereotype conformity and/or sexist/homophobic ideas about what girls and boys should do or how they should present.

Added to which is the innate desire for every child to do things which make their "oracle of all knowledge" parents happy with them. And if mum is saying "this thing is right, do it this way", what child is going to spontaneously rise up against that?

Our parents are our world when we are small. We don't for a second think they're going to lie to us for untoward ends. Which makes this all the more despicable. What parent in their right mind would say "yes darling, you DO have something wrong with your, you should get it fixed". Sickening.