Same sex spaces the good and bad

[MissEyre]

I was remembering being younger and how I disliked same sex spaces. Not sure whether it was positive (I wanted to be the footballer not the cheerleader, the priest not the congregation, etc,etc) or negative (internalised misogyny). Probably a complex mixture of the two.

I think as a youngster I saw same sex spaces as holding pens. And wondered whether many young women feel the same and so don’t value them?

Anyway if anyone has any wise words I’d be glad to read them.

They are needed.

Same sex spaces doesn't mean you can't play football it means that when you change into your football kit the males and females are in separate rooms.

Same sex spaces? What hospital wards, changing rooms and such? No, I never found them anything but safe. Having to change in front of men would make me very uncomfortable.

Im not sure that miss idea of a same sex space is the same as mine

Especially if she thinks that it means you can't play football

Could you possibly clarify what you mean by same sex space please miss

Feminist same sex spaces are very different from holding pens (girls studying sewing while boys study woodwork ) or refuges from the patriarchy (women only train carriages/prisons).
Arguments against the latter should not be used to eliminate the former.

Worth reading marilyn frye's 'on separatism and power '

feminist-reprise.org/library/resistance-strategy-and-struggle/some-reflections-on-separatism-and-power/

Anyway if anyone has any wise words I’d be glad to read them

Did you ever stop and think why we have same sex spaces?

Why not pick some same sex spaces and do a SWOT analysis on them and present your findings to the board?

I think I felt similar when I was in my teens (a while ago now) but totally recognise the need now & will fight for them to be retained

When I find a topic complicated my thinking isn’t necessarily clear and no doubt that’s reflected in the OP. To make matters worse we can’t edit the OP. Just ignore me if you can’t be bothered to deal with an ignoramus’ muddled thinking.

To superloudpoppingaction thank you. Yes, I meant “girls studying sewing while boys study woodwork”. That sort of single sex space. I expressed it badly.

I appreciate your guidance and will go and look up Frye. Hopefully that will take me a bit further along the road.

Beeyourself. Yes, me too. I feel very cluttered in my thinking about this though. There is a lot of ground to clear.

...just read the first para and am cheered to find that Fryethinks it’s hard too :)

Good - provides safety and privacy for women and children, and privacy for men and boys.
Bad - can make things difficult for parents and opposite sex children.

Thinking of the women's pond in Hampstead at least pre-self ID staff training:

Good:

a place away from the male gaze in which to feel comfortable when sunbathing topless and just relaxing in nature

a place where you don't get stared at for not complying with current trends re depilation / cosmetic surgery

a place where women who have had mastectomies / limb amputations can just chill out without being stared at

bad:

fairly frequent invitations to sign petitions endorsing quackery and conspiracy theories

occasional attempts by cults to recruit via female recruiters and leaflets

re women only steam / sauna:

the opportunity for women from Jewish / Muslim /Christian / atheist beliefs to get to know one another outside of the usual social norms

Am a few paras in and already feel like my brain has been put in a washing machine (in a good way).

Thanks again

www.feministcurrent.com/2015/11/30/18995/
Cheat sheet here.

I love Marilyn Frye though. On class and race as well.

Lots of women who have experience of sexist single-sex spaces have reservations about any single-sex spaces.
I think that's a totally normal thought process.

I've absolutely loved any women only conferences I've been to though and found them very different to mixed ones.
It's safer to talk about certain things. And nice not to have any mansplaining.

They aren't utopian but they are different in quality to mixed spaces.

To superloudpoppingaction thank you. Yes, I meant “girls studying sewing while boys study woodwork”. That sort of single sex space. I expressed it badly

Ah fair enough

I getcha

I hated that as a teenager as well, but with the exception of sport i think this is getting a bit better in schools

Or is that just wishful thinking?

To superloudpoppingaction thank you. Yes, I meant “girls studying sewing while boys study woodwork”. That sort of single sex space. I expressed it badly

That’s not really an example of single-sex spaces, but of gendered activities.

When I read threads like this I thank my lucky stars that I went to an all-girls school. 😂 No mansplaining, no male gaze to make me feel self-conscious about the lack of a bust, no dumbing down in case boys would think you were a swot. I'm very comfortable in all female spaces.

Girls do a lot better in single-sex schools.

I went to a mixed one until a levels then single sex.
Being at a single sex school really sorted out my internalized misogyny and I developed friendships with girls for the first time.

And I started to flourish in sciences without anyone shouting out before I could answer.

All the girls and young women I know do value sex segregated spaces. For them it helps with privacy, dignity and confidence. So worth fighting for.

As girls after PE, many of us were too self-conscious to shower in the communal girls' space. Lord only knows how much worse we'd have felt about basic getting changed if the space had not been sex segregated.

In primary the boys did woodwork and the girls did sewing. I hated sewing then (though I do it now and love it) and wanted to do woodwork. But I couldn't.

"Why not?"
"Because boys do woodwork and girls do sewing."
"Why?"
"That's the way it is. Anyway, boys don't want to do sewing."
Even my parents couldn't get a better answer from the school.

Then I went to a girls' school, where we were taught that we were the leaders of tomorrow: the doctors, not the nurses; the engineers, not the typists; the MPs, not the secretaries. Admirable attitude (and an academically very successful school), but they also made the active decision not to teach us Home Ec, Needlework or Childcare.

To my mind, both attitudes are unbalanced and perpetuate unhealthy stereotypes. The same-sex spaces in those contexts were stifling and unhelpful.

OTOH same-sex spaces that allow girls and women to flourish (eg a girls-only Physics class, AW shortlists), or be safer (eg a women's changing room or a female DV shelter) are the opposite of stifling. They present more opportunities to girls and women. They provide equity of opportunity with men.

Same sex spaces are necessary for privacy, dignity and safety when nudity is involved. This includes spaces where we sleep (hospitals, prisons, train sleeper carriages, hostels, refuges etc).
Same sex groups are (historically and currently) important for political organising and representation for women (although hopefully, one day we will be beyond this).

Sometimes it’s nice to be in an all woman social group, but laws to permit this in structured circumstances would likely be more detrimental than beneficial (because the opposite, men’s members clubs, Freemasons etc) have been used to keep power and influence in the hands of men.

So, in summary, anything that involves nakedness, safety, fair competition (such as sports categories), and fair representation (as long as it is needed to correct inbalances that can be proven on a material basis) is good.

The rest, not good.

Back in the late 50s I went to the local mixed grammar school where I had to do needlework and domestic science, while the boys did woodwork and metal work. Grr! By the time our two went to their local comprehensive in the 80s, boys and girls did all four practical subjects, which was much fairer and DS is now the best cook in the family.

Being very shy and socially awkward I wasn't very happy at school until I reached the Sixth Form, but I really blossomed when I went to my single-sex college. Lots of opportunity to interact with men during the day, but oh, the bliss when visiting hours ended and we could all just relax... That was when I really learned to value and treasure female friendship and solidarity and that feeling is still with me 50 years on.

Women matter and women's rights matter, as do the spaces women need for privacy, dignity and safety.

Like a lot of other people posting I went to an all girls school and loved it. I dont remember feeling self conscious about how I looked, having any concept of a 'boys' or a 'girls' subject (if you were good at physics or english it was all the same), I wasn't keen on PE but it was just because I wasn't keen - not because boys could be there and see me. At 16 we had a kind of graduation disco and barely anyone even cared to being a date....because it was about us and our friendships.

Went back for an event there about 15 years after leaving and there were hundreds of women from 18 to 70 and it was a great atmosphere knowing that we had had a chance to just focus on friendship and study. I know it wouldn't suit everyone but it was a totally safe space for us to just 'be' and never have to put on a show of who we thought boys would want us to be.