AIBU to think the US deserves the Govt it's got?

[YemenRoadYemen]

I know there are other threads about this.

But am I being unreasonable to think that America deserves the president it has because so many people - of which a ridiculous amount were women - voted for this cretin? I know he didn't get the popular vote, but he did get the job.

He put Kavanagh in there, and now if Roe vs Wade goes to the Supreme Court, the GOP plants will overturn it.

I'm so angry about this, but I feel as if America has brought this on themselves, and if that man wins in 2020, which let's face it, he almost certainly will, they've got no-one to blame but themselves.

Argue back. Please. Tell me I'm unreasonable, and why. This is all so depressing.

Well that is how democracy works. People get who they vote for (hung parliaments being an obvious exception). I suppose you could argue that America doesn’t deserve this and the democrats are to blame for putting forward such an appalling candidate. But I think it’s not necessary. They voted (or didn’t) and trump for president was the result.

I think increasingly we see other countries turning up their noses at America, look at the reception than Mike pence got in Germany

Soon their only allies will be the 'shitholes' decried by Trump, the first world will turn its back on America as it descends into greater and greater corruption and inequality

The person who gets most blame for the fact that Trump is president is undoubtedly Hillary Clinton.

She achieved the seemingly impossible by losing to the worst Republican candidate ever to stand for the presidency, despite actually winning the popular vote. It simply beggars belief that she could have run such an awful campaign, with absolutely nothing to say to the “left behind” voters in “rust belt” states who are the victims of globalisation.

The left needs to get real, stop obsessing about identity politics and political correctness and start listening to the concerns of ordinary working people of all backgrounds.

I don't have a problem with the electoral college in concept. It's the same idea as having a congress which is population based an a senate which is region based, it's trying to reflect a similar balance in the executive branch.
No one would say an EU country with greater population should have more say than one with a small population - that's the kind of thing people would really get their knickers in a twist about, so the system is designed to make sure it doesn't happen.

People I am angry with:

Clinton for making that "Basket of Deplorables" comment - did she not realise how that would play out for her? How did she think that sounded to a wavering voter in Illinois or Michigan, who had good friends and family voting Trump out of economic desperation? (NB - that doesn't mean I think she shouldn't have become president - she would have been so much better than Trump. But it does mean I think she made a huge tactical mistake in her campaigning, one that someone with her experience should have avoided).

All the left-leaning voters who voted for Bernie or Jill because they didn't want to dirty their hands voting for Clinton, despite knowing that it was a two-horse race, and that their vote materially lessened the chances of Hillary getting in. (Again, that doesn't mean I think Hillary was perfect: the criticisms of her as too establishment and too embedded in the status quo were spot on. But realistically it was her or Trump, and pretty much anyone would have been better than Trump).

But I don't think America "got the government it deserved" because half the population didn't vote that way, and of the half that did, quite a substantial proportion really were being fucked over by the system - and if the political establishment lets the voters get that disaffected with main stream politics because they don't give a shit about people outside their own core voter base - well, they bear the responsibility for not doing anything.

Heck, people voted for Obama to get change and he delivered more neoliberal status quo.

I read a really interesting case study the other day that this reminds me of.
It was written by a Marxist woman from a working class background, about her parents, who voted for Trump. She was trying to show that to simplify his success down to Evangelical white racists who hate everything was far too simplistic.
Her parents were working class, and very involved in the church. However, they were Mexican speaking Hispanics, big in the union movement for many years, big into education and healthcare movements for the working classes, hugely politically active, kind, well read. They voted for Obama twice.
Of course there was no way they could vote for Clinton. But the daughter says she asked them, how could you trust that Trump will be a class traitor and do what he says. And their response was "Well, we trust Trump like we trusted Obama. He didn't really stand on our side of the line in the end when it came down to us and the bankers."

It makes me very angry when professional white university educated progressives look down their noses and can't imagine why anyone would vote for Trump.

No one voted for Sanders against Trump though.

And technically more people voted for Clinton. But she lost because of their system.

True. And yet an awful lot of people in this country are currently trying to ignore/overrule a simple tally of individual votes from the referendum. Doesn't seem to please the losing side any better.

I'm sure they can come up with a justification of why that's different though!

"No one voted for Sanders against Trump though."

They did however vote Sanders against Clinton, wanting to make a point about the ideologically purity of their vote. And in doing so, increased Trump's chances of getting in - a fact which should have been obvious to anyone who read the newspapers/followed the news in the run up to the election.

The thing that struck me as an outside, with many American friends who I chat to regularly, was how convinced the liberal establishment seemed to be that they'd walk it - even post Brexit, even though if you showed, without captions, two graphs of timelines for opinion polls in the run up to both elections, they looked damn near identical (2 to 3 point lead for Remain/Clinton, wavering a bit around that average). They should have seen the risk coming, they didn't.

On the day, one of my American friends who lives in Michigan and who for decades has volunteered to drive registered Democrat voters to the polls if they're too ill or infirm to get there, said she knew something was up because no one, literally no-one, was phoning up for lifts.

Yes the numerical majority was for Clinton. But something went horribly, horribly wrong for her in the crucial blue collar/rural swing states. Or rather, a number of things. She didn't put enough effort into the black vote, just took it for granted. She made that stupid "Basket of Deplorables" comment. She didn't say enough about what she was going to do about genuine economic deprivation.

Fermats

I am confused about why they shouldn't have voted for Sanders against Clinton in the primaries? That did not make Trump more likely to win, and it is what they are for.
There is some analysis that suggests that had Sanders won the primaries, he would have won against Trump. So you could say that people who voted for Clinton simply because they thought she was more electable made the wrong choice.

But I don't think I'd characterise a vote for Sanders in teh primaries as looking ideological purity. I think people voted for him because they liked his policies better.

No, not talking about the primaries - talking about the muppets who went for "write-ins" - admittedly the effect was probably tiny, but in some swing states so were the margins.

I agree that in the primaries it was perfectly legitimate to vote for him, and the whole outcome might have looked very different.

Wasn't Sanders the victim of some sharp practice by Clinton supporters at the DNC? Could well have led to disaffected Bernie supporters voting for Jill Stein and would hardly have had them leaping out of their beds to vote for her on polling day.

Presumably you are not in the UK OP? (People in glass houses.....) I think we probably did a worse job of picking our last government than the US.

In both cases people have the government they deserve- we all bear some responsibility for these messes.

Ah ,I see, that makes sense. And of course some people didn't vote at all, because they couldn't stand to vote for Clinton, and that might have made a difference.

I am hesitant to get angry about that kind of thing though. I am sure there are people who are basically stubborn asses, but at the same time, I think we all draw our line somewhere when it comes to voting in these kinds of situations. There were a fair number who voted or Obama but could not bring themselves to vote for Clinton, including black voters. To me that really says something about the degree to which they did not believe in her as a candidate. For that matter, I'm not sure I could have voted for her.
Then, some people don't believe in strategic voting, and I think that's a defensible view - it does undermine the system. In the long term, if people don't vote for people like Jill Stein because they won't win, it just consolidates power more firmly in the hands of Tweedledum and Tweedledee.

I don't think anyone deserves Trump and his damaging, bigoted, dangerous policies.

I have to say I think Hillary's arrogance in not standing down to make way for a better democrat candidate had its part to play as well.

But I stand by that nobody deserves what he's inflicted on the American people. Particularly women and BAME people.

And do not forget the selfish narcissism of Jill Stein, whose 1.5 million votes might well have swung it for Clinton.

Wasn't Sanders the victim of some sharp practice by Clinton supporters at the DNC?

Yup.

What is really scary to me is that I don't think the DNC really gets it, even now. Clinton wrote that book which was totally lacking in any insight.

But they seem to be pushing they gay mayor candidate, who looks exactly like a Clinton. Talks well, is a great talker, hits an id politics button, and is a sort of pro tech pro big money guy. There is zero chance that he will do anything crazy about poverty.

I am not sure if they really want to run him against Trump, I suspect they want to use him to take interest away from Sanders or Warren so they can run Biden.

The choice at the last election was crap, it was like choosing which landmine to step on!

No idea who to vote for next time

That's true, Goose. I have a great deal of sympathy with black voters - some of Bill's track record in regard to race does not read well. Ditto women voters who thought "she stood by her man when he was using power imbalance to screw his staff." (It's a hell of a thing when your choice is between the self-professed pussy grabber and the woman who "gave two arms to cling to" the man who had BJs from a junior member of his staff).

Politics is a shitty mess at times. Sometimes there are lines you feel you can't cross, even when you can see that opening the way to a massively unpalatable alternative (I couldn't bring myself to vote for Blair after the Iraq war, for instance).

And do not forget the selfish narcissism of Jill Stein

But in the bigger picture, what is that really saying?

People should not be able to vote o policies they actually believe in, or run on them? There should only ever be two choices for voters? People should just suck up whatever crap candidates the two big parties offer them (two big parties funded by the same people.)

YABU. If the majority did not agree with the decision, it is not reasonable to blame them. On the other hand, the majority did agree to Brexit in the UK, which is permanent and an even more overtly racist and openly destructive choice.

Well, I am not sure that accusing half the people of being deplorable, I mean racist, is likely to help understand why these votes happened.

I've forgotten which US journalist coined the phrase after the election "the left took him literally, but not seriously, the right took him seriously, but not literally": it's one of the best summings up of what happened.

Moderate right wingers who voted for him (not all did - I have a friend who left the Republican party once he got the candidacy) took the view that "all that guff about women and pussies and Mexicans and rape - it's just hyperbole to look good to the great unwashed at rallies." Then he got elected, introduced the Muslim travel ban and packed the Supreme court with anti abortionists...

Meanwhile, the left were busy screaming at the top of their voices "he really does mean that shit.." - and history has proved them right. But at the same time, they thought he was a joke candidate and Hillary would walk it.

As an American I find it really terrible to be told that I deserve Trump. I would not say you deserve Brexit - Trump's max term would be eight years unlike Brexit but they both are causing harm (possibly irreparable harm). None of us really deserve what the ruling class decides for us, their disconnect from lives of those not pulling in massive income is damaging and self-serving.

First you get the money
Then you get the power
Respect
Hoes come last

Ay, get it, get it, get it, get it, get it
Cash rules everything around me

I don't like Trump (DT) I don't like Hillary (HRC) and I'm not fond of the two-party system. I'm not fond of the electoral override of the popular vote but it is a good tool in theory and we have to deal with voter fraud on the regular (look at our recent elections).

I didn't vote DT - I voted strategically for HRC with a heavy heart (post primaries). I do understand macro and micro economics and believe in the importance of equal protection for all under law and I center women. HRC wouldn't have been great but she would have been less bad than DT. I hated having to vote strategically instead of my conscience but I tried to keep DT out by voting HRC because DT embodies all of the worst of men. Being a two party system we haven't had an outside party win a presidential election since 1850, so if you want your voice to be counted and mean something you have to choose between a donkey and an elephant.

The night Trump was confirmed POTUS I walked outside at 3am (I had to know the outcome before sleep)... panicked, depressed, and unsure of what our future held. I saw my beloved neighbor on her lawn, praying and crying - asking the universe what would come of us. We did women's marches together, we spoke loudly that Hillary was our only choice (post primaries) and here we were - two women of different generations holding each other and lamenting the inevitable havoc our nation was set to endure.

So don't tell me I deserve it, don't you put that on me or my magnificent neighbor or any other person that voted against DT for HRC (write-ins contributed to Trump's win).

US media focuses on the Kardashians (yuck) and their ilk, on fashion, on men's sport, on objectification of women, tech, and status symbols. Kids are looking to be famous rather than make a difference. Unless you know where to look the true political agendas are difficult to ascertain as all politics are colored by the lean of the media reporting.

This perspective that Americans deserve all of the bullshit occurring behind the curtain is hateful towards America's children - especially girls. Kids today didn't pick this travesty just like my generation didn't pick trickle-down economics (which continues to fuck our economy and made the "American Dream" significantly harder to accomplish if not almost impossible unless from affluent means).

Those that voted for Trump chose this path not those of us that didn't. Politics are shrouded in deception and connections... herding sheeple towards ruling class desires all the while dividing them into echo chambers ever militant and lacking in the ability to consider another's perspective. DH and I are outliers as we detest echo chamber mentality but we are not alone.

It is dystopian, it is disheartening - I agree. But saying that people deserve the shit sandwich we are being force-fed is blindly ignorant as many of us work for the betterment of our nation (not career politicians but the real Americans)... ever attempting to hold the line while pushing against this tidal wave.

This isn't a gossipy thing this isn't some bullshit in a fictional story, this is my life and my loved one's lives you are condemning in your attempt to appear superior.

What a lovely statement of solidarity for those of us Americans reading the Mumsnet FWR board; surely amongst the Americans most likely to have joined the majority in voting against Trump and continuing to fight him and his allies ever since.

Hey ho, we'll carry on fighting to save our country. Maybe save your fire for actual enemies, though?