What is proportionate discriminations?

[MIdgebabe]

Inspired by taxi thread. Generalising . Expecting a diversity of opinions exist

IN an ideal world there would be no sex based discriminations. Sex based discrimination is allowed where it is a proportionate response to ensure women can fully participate.

But I suspect that allowing sex based discrimination reinforces notions that because women are needing help they are therefore lesser in some way....so we should limit sex separation not just for fairness but also to reduce gender stereotyping?

Is the balance today broadly correct? This could be country specific ...I am in the uk. For me , anywhere where women are naked should be sex separated. Which does mean Male midwives are excluded. Women’s sports nessessity, But not girls and boys sports. AWS I am less sure about. Ditto taxis. Def not things like ladies-only pamper evenings or men only clubs

I don't think the nakedness issue is the clincher so long as individual women can make a free choice. eg no problem with male midwives so long as each woman has an option to say "no, sorry I need a woman" - some women won't care. Equally some women may be fine getting changed in a mixed-sex area and that is fine so long as individual private cubicles or single sex areas are also available.

Proportionate means weighing the harm done by the discrimination against the benefit brought. "Discrimination" itself just means recognising differences and making a choice. That's not wrong. What is wrong is making the choice based on preconceptions and biases. Culturally we still have a lot of subconscious sexism. Men are far more likely to be given positions of power and responsibility than women. All-Women shortlists, scholarships and opportunities are proportione and reasonable measures to address this because the harm done to males - who will still have plenty of opportunities to thrive as there will be plenty of options which are open to all - is far outweighed by the benefit of redressing the cultural biases which have put additional barriers in the path of female candidates meaning that talent would otherwise go unrecognised.

We should keep monitoring outcomes and opportunities and be open to winding down all-female opportunities once their purpose is fulfilled and the cultural biases are truly confined to history, but that will be decades away.

Talking of male midwives, the Guardian had this article about the "sexism" one faced because women didn't want him to treat them:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/may/09/tutor-not-job-man-roofer-male-midwife-nhs

I’m 50 now and have encountered a certain amount of sexism in my career. I’ve had 118 people – mostly women – refuse to be cared for by me. I have had other patients who were shocked to see a man; there was one who didn’t say anything, but the look of total shock on her face was very funny.

Oh it's hilarious when women are uncomfortable and don't feel they can express it, truly. Arsehole.

My gender is technically irrelevant, but there are underlying perceptions and unconscious attitudes.

If you mean your sex, mate, no it really isn't irrelevant to many women receiving intimate care.

118 instanaces of sexism... who keeps count like that?

Yes, that's what I thought too. He must have a little notebook.

Def not things like ladies-only pamper evenings

I think you are showing your own prejudices here. I have no desire to go to a ladies only pamper evening but why shouldn't those who fancy it not do so. Presumably they may well involve partial undressing?

I agree with lass

I think there are some social events which should be same sex

I cant think of any because my brain is not working

But pamper parties would definitely be one

In the same way i wouldnt have a problem with the local turkish barbers offering a shaving party to men

Most pamper parties tend to be informal and at someones house though...or am i thinking of the wrong thing

It is an oddity: The longstanding female resistance to male midwives but preference for male gynaecologists.

Can anyone explain?

Are you in the uk mockers

As far as i know in england at least with the nhs you get what you are given with consultants and are grateful

This may be different in scotland or ireland...though i dont see why

I am, and I'm speaking about opinion surveys.

Giving birth is not like visiting a gynecologist, so I don't think its an oddity.
Before I gave birth I wanted my partner there; when I went into second stage labour I suddenly and irrationally hated him and wanted him to fuck off to the far side of fuck.

Some events should be single sex. Male voice choirs are a good example.

But I suspect that allowing sex based discrimination reinforces notions that because women are needing help they are therefore lesser in some way....so we should limit sex separation not just for fairness but also to reduce gender stereotyping?

No. Whats the problem with being different? If we are seen as lesser by some people its their prejudice and hierarchical thinking thats the problem. Is someone in a wheelchair lesser?

It is an oddity: The longstanding female resistance to male midwives but preference for male gynaecologists.

There's a preference for male gynaecologists?

IN an ideal world there would be no sex based discriminations.

Adjustments are not discriminatory, and they are allowed because of differences in biology.
No one is discriminating against people who can walk by installing a wheelchair ramp.
No one is being discriminated against by being excluded from a breastfeeding room.

Ive only seen a gynecologist once when i was 13

We get to chose the sex of our consultants now?

I did not know that....every day is a learning day on mumsnet

I would have said that women do not have a preference for male gynecologists but i havent seen those opinion polls

Interesting

but preference for male gynaecologists

Uh, most women prefer female gynaecologists.

As far as i know in england at least with the nhs you get what you are given with consultants and are grateful

I'm in Scotland. I saw a female gynaecologist on the NHS and a male gynaecologist privately.

I was "asked" only for the NHS one in the sense that the gynaecologist was attached to a Well Woman clinic who at the time were female staffed. She was terrible. On the private consultation I don't recall being asked if I had a preference. I don't and wouldn't ask to see a female doctor as I'm happy with anyone who knows what they are doing. I don't know if the private treatment would have accommodated such a request.

Uh, most women prefer female gynaecologists

Do they?

I think women generally are physically weaker than men, and men already know that and there is no getting away from that.
Society should allow safeguards to mitigate the differences between the sexes and allow single-sex female spaces etc. to allow the maximum number of women to participate equally.
Plans for a female taxi service squashed but there are no plans from Glasgow Council to stop the Freemasons from being men only, etc. so it is not a council fighting for sex equality. It is a council unwilling to admit that male violence can impact it's female citizens.

but there are no plans from Glasgow Council to stop the Freemasons from being men only, etc

Glasgow City Council has no remit over the membership of the Freemasons.

but there are no plans from Glasgow Council to stop the Freemasons from being men only, etc
Glasgow City Council has no remit over the membership of the Freemasons.

In any case, there are women-only and mixed-sex Freemasons Lodges.

I do not say women prefer a male gynaecologist, but they are in general not resistant to the concept and practice in the way that many are in the case of male midwives.

I think there are a few things tied up in this.

In general, I think real discrimination on the basis of sex should be minimised. I think a lot of things, like work, should be open to everyone who qualifies. I usually don't care whether there are some jobs that are male or female dominated, because I don't think it makes sense to pretend that male and female lives are or should be identical. If that causes problems - like fewer women have pensions - then find ways to make that situation better.

I do think politics should strive for something closer to equal numbers of men and women, and that can be carefully supported through intervention.

I do think privacy or modesty is a valid reason for separating the sexes. I don't think it's really discrimination though, or that is the best way to think about it in the law. To me modesty , which is of course an old fashioned word, is about respect for the body in terms of the whole person. I think we need a way of recognising that yes, there is a cultural component to how we practise that, but that is ok, it doesn't make it less important.

As far as things like medical care, I do think there is probably always going to have to be some compromises. Where I live for example, a man needing nursing care will be very luck to get a male nurse. And we have a GP shortage, and while technically you don't have to take the first person available, the fact is options may be limited. Most GPs are women, but they also work fewer hours, so you probably have an even chance of getting a man or woman. But I think that in the context of professional care maintaining modesty is possible even in those circumstances.

One thing I have really come to dislike is that we have a lot of special clubs and camps and such for girls only, and not for boys. I think it's ok for men and women to have separate social clubs if they want, and I think it's very good for young people to have these, where there is good leadership. They don't exist for boys here at all, even scouting is mixed. So in principle I like the idea, but not the actual focus. I think the problem is that people think about this as only trying to improve things for women, and not in terms of the idea that boys and girls may benefit from some separate mentoring and socialising, even if there was no sexism to combat.

I do not say women prefer a male gynaecologist, but they are in general not resistant to the concept and practice in the way that many are in the case of male midwives.

I would agree with this. I've found there are also more than I might have expected who prefer male gynaecologists or GPs or paediatricians even. Usually if they have a reason they have said they find male doctors less likely to talk down to them or dismiss their concerns.

The most patronising GP I saw was male. Second most was female. Generally though I'd prefer to see a woman these days, but most things I'm seeing them about are gynae/peri-menopause related and the GP who specialises in that area is a woman.

I’m not sure about gynaecologists but the term midwife suggests female.

’Gynae’ refers to the field of study rather than the sex of the practitioner; after all, you wouldn’t assume a proctologist was an arsehole.