Is the solution that simple - Males remain male, regardless and Gender Identity is recognised as a belief?

[loveyouradvice]

I love the sound of this - Male people remain using male spaces (whether changing areas or whatever) and Gender is recognised as a belief system, not a fact, so is indeed regarded as important as far as equality and discrimination go.

It does mean of course that there will be no transgender sportspeople, with a small number of exceptions where they truly are exceptional or where sex is irrelevant.

And perhaps, helpful, as with other belief systems, to provide safe spaces for people sharing a belief system to come together..... Putting some creative thought into this, it does probably mean unisex bathrooms, etc ie spaces where all can feel comfortable

And of course it does mean a massive cultural change for men regarding acceptance ......

I don't understand why it necessarily means mixed sex toilets

Can you elaborate?

Just that some third spaces need to be provided - so majority single sex and some mixed for those who are not comfortable in single sex, and that I can accept - so long as single sex remains the majority as so important

I don't see why sports are necessarily affected. If they remain single sex they can welcome trans people into the appropriate categories. Public campaigns against actual transphobia would help, no gaslighting or silencing of debate required. Just honesty and kindness. Plenty of people under the trans umbrella do not take hormones. Choosing to play sports competitively necessarily involves many sacrifices that the majority of people can't manage. Hormones or competing is just such a choice. With a greater genuine public acceptance of trans identities, whilst acknowledging natal sex, you might find less people require hormones anyway.

In sport, opportunities would be opened up for the most maginalised trans group: transmen. At the moment they are INVISIBLE in sport - possibly because they exclude themselves and are unable to compete against men.

As long as they were under the testosterone limit for competition, they would be able to play football/rugby on women's teams, run, jump, judo, box or cycle in their sex category.

AGREE AGREE AGREE theotherpam and Stilla

The only ones who won't be able to compete are those whose hormone levels mean they can't and yes, that is indeed a choice they are making....though I do think a way round the hormone-taking trans group needs to be found.... I can't help thinking we can learn a lot from the paralympics who ensured all could compete by creating extra categories

I'm starting to become allergic to the phrase 'be kind'. It too often means a one way expectation of 'be a doormat' and 'put up with unacceptable breaking of your boundaries' instead of meaning a positive, two way interaction.

Going with the fact that innate biological features cannot be changed: (and if people are permitted to 'identify' into protected groups and have equal access to the resources society has put aside for them then transage, transBAME and transabled are just some of the groups openly waiting in the wings)

'I enjoy adult baby play with my partner in the privacy of our home sex life'.

Kind response: each to their own, do what makes you happy

'I identify as an adult baby and am therefore transage, and will be attending this preschool with your kid, in the identity of a 12 month old girl named Polly. How dare you misgender, misage and dead age me! Hate Speech! Die in a fire if you don't like it you kink shamer, PC Gull will be ringing you later'.

Kind response...…..?

Someones belief in gender identity shouldn't come at the expense of anyone else's rights or safety.

So mixed sex toilets in addition to single sex provision, and not at the expense of women or disabled people.

Fine by me. Now who’s going to persuade the transactivists?

Someone pointed out on here a while back, vis-a-vis the toilets issue, that it might have been plausible for transitioners who struggle to use the toilets provided for their biological sex to have campaigned for access to disabled spaces. GD could be regarded, if severe enough, as a disability.

Instead it has been argued that being “trans” (whatever that means if a diagnosis of GD is not necessary) is a normal state of mind and that we should replace sex segregation with gender segregation. Somehow I don’t imagine transactivists would be any happier with transism being classified as a belief.

THIS, SO SO THIS!

It is a belief that a minority share. They have a right to their belief but we have a right to not believe.

SEX remains a protected characteristic separate from gender that would be protected under belief.

Trans people can do sport no one has said they can't, however they compete based on the sex not their belief. The GRA and the legal fiction of changing birth certificates is scrapped as no longer needed when gender is a belief and same sex marriage is now allowed.

Education around trans would come under belief studies and tolerance towards others of different beliefs. Gender non conformity and breaking down of stereotypes could be encouraged without the promotion of drugs and surgery.

Michelle transabled is already a thing 😕 apparently left leg below the knee is the preferred limb to loose!

Anyoldprion of course the TRA won't like it but if governments etc can be convinced of it that is more important. As it is a win win for governments in accepting trans under article 9 they are seen to show compassion for them as a minority and also show they support women's sex based rights.

Maya's legal case is SO SO important as if she wins it sets out in law that trans ideology can been seen as a belief. I hope she gets a decent judge and not some wannabe woke.

Can we also use a naming convention for the different genders that doesn't include 'men' and 'women'. Some different terms to embody the stereotypes would be really helpful in removing the confusion over the difference between sex and gender.

I think a longer term ideal solution would be desexualising the human body so that things like mixed changing rooms are completely acceptable and removing sex segregation in the sense of pity positive discrimination. Unfortunately I doubt this will ever happen. Perverts prevent the normalisation of nudity and the people who worked hard to create positive discrimination (or those who benefit from the effect it has in concealing institutional inequality) wouldn’t allow the end of sex segregation.

@cordeliaflynne the words you are looking for are masculine and feminine.

I think a longer term ideal solution would be desexualising the human body so that things like mixed changing rooms are completely acceptable and removing sex segregation in the sense of pity positive discrimination. Unfortunately I doubt this will ever happen.

I doubt that will ever happen too, along with curing Male violence. And sports would still need to be correctly separated by sex, because humans are dimorphic.

BogglesGoggles I don't think that masculine and feminine are it at all. They describe the characteristics for male and female things. I think separating the language used around gender completely from the language used around sex (as in sexual dimorphism rather than as in sexual activity) would be really helpful.

If someone feels that they really need a single word to describe a their character traits, personality and sartorial preferences and to group them with others who share those traits, personalities and preferences then thats fine but lets completely decouple this from the language used to describe men and women, male and female, masculine and feminine. I think this would make the whole debate much clearer.

Sex describes the kid of body you have and gender is a belief system that you may or may not share. The two things should be separated completely.

I wish this could be the case but policies are currently being discussed based on SOGI, sexual orientation & gender identity. Gender identity should never trump biological sex.

I think we need three categories that should not be mixed up:
Biological sex, gender and gender identity.

It is clear that ‘gender’ still disadvantages women and girls, hence the need for e.g. all women shortlists. There is interaction between the categories, as e.g male socialisation often give men and boys a sense of entitlement to ogle womens bodies, so we need spaces segregated by sex.

‘Gender identity’ is a seperate thing. Sex is biology, gender is social, and gender identity is an intraindividual belief. A belief should never trump biology, so no xy chromosome people in xx spaces. Beliefs also do not trump social gender, so no xy’s on AWS.

Lots of highly sensible ideas above.

I just want to chip in withe proviso that I don't think a transman taking testosterone could compete fairly in the female sporting category. A transman not taking T, fine. But taking testosterone is basically doping by another name. The person develops more male-like characteristics such as muscle building capacity... If female athletes dope, they are cheating and banned. An exception shouldn't be allowed for another female based on a feeling they are a man. Also, it would then open the door for a country to encourage a female athlete to dope and just say 'I identify as a transman' and get away with it. It would be like the East Germany situation all over again.

The current T level allowed of 5 nmol is still incredibly generous for a biological female, based on the slimmest of slim outside statistical chances of a biological female with a testosterone issue who isn't doping. So going up to that legal level for trans reasons would be an unfair advantage.

I agree Boggles that it would be great if the naked body could be desexualised enough for mixed sex facilities to be fine, but sadly also agree it's extremely unlikely to happen.

When some facilities for toileting and changing are made unisex and some are single sex, it all starts out fun. Women use the unisex just fine.

But all it takes is one or two incidents that make a woman feel unsafe in a unisex facility like that, and suddenly, she's using the female-only facilities. After 10 years, very nearly every woman will have had some incidents, so now there'll be a men's room, a women's room, and a second men's room that we call unisex and which young or naive women without a lot of worldly experience sometimes use to show their parents and friends that they're courageous and nuanced and don't believe all the stories from the old fogeys about how men are predatory.

Womb I agree.. and this is why I think when facilities are limited the Men's should become Unisex and the Women's remain single sex

Of course transism is a belief system. In the UK we have the right to express our faith and the right to not express a different faith. I do not believe in Transism.

So, for example, Transism believers should be allowed to wear the clothes representative of their faith, just as orthodox Jews and Muslims do, but access only facilities relevant to their biological sex.

Not sure why this would mean unisex toilets, though. Jews/Quakers/atheists don't need separate toilets because of their faith, why would Transismists?

I think we need three categories that should not be mixed up:
Biological sex, gender and gender identity.

This

I would also add something to state surgery has taken place, this is quite important for me as even though I don't believe that someone who has had genital surgery has changed sex I'd like to know when penises are around in women's spaces. Not sure what, it's a lot of categories and probably more chances for TRAs and the media to conflate them all!

I know what gender really means but often it's used to mean gender identity so we could ditch that and just say sex.

SEX SEX SEX

so now there'll be a men's room, a women's room, and a second men's room that we call unisex

And a whole lot of wailing about wanting to be in with the women.

The only thing that is going to help women here is clear ring fencing of biological sex and rights to access a single sexed space regardless of cod science, 'sex is a spectrum', 'I have a ladypenis' and all the rest of it.

Third spaces - great. I wholly get why TWs don't want to change/toilet around men, fully respect that. Yes, there should be an alternative. Non binary, TM, whoever else wants an alternative to biologically sexed provision, great. Crack on. But the guts are going to have to be found to say, no matter how you identify you don't get to overturn the rights of half the population of the world.

Genderism IS a belief system and should be recognised as such. There is no evidence that male and female brains exist (Prof Gina Rippon) and no evidence that there are clusters of traits that humans have that can be identified as ‘male traits’ or ‘female traits’ that would constitute male or female identity (Prof Cordelia Fine). There is certainly no independent diagnostic test for male or female identity. It all depends on having a feeling that a man is actually a woman or vice versa. Yet it is impossible to know how others feel inside so how would any man know that their woman feeling is actually how a woman feels? Trans women are women is a statement of belief just like ‘I believe in God The Father’ is a statement of belief that others are free to believe or not believe as they wish.

It's very sensible if you are a sensible person.

But as solutions go, it doesn't validate the true believers, who would no longer be special.