Really good article re Caster Semenya outcome

[Raylas]

Apologies if already posted somewhere, couldn't find it. Really worth a read though.

quillette.com/2019/05/03/a-victory-for-female-athletes-everywhere/

Well, I think this is complicated as sometimes it is not so much they are assumed female at birth but they are assumed “not fully male”

Not always. Intersex xy can have “normal” looking genitals- often a “blind” vagina but externally labia, clitoris etc.

From barrakers links you mentioned- there are many biographies, not just the xy-male ones

aissga.org.au/biographies/bobbyjo.htm

Xy f, with no reason to suspect they were xy. Even married and had sex. Only on further investigation into dysmenorrheoa as an adult did her condition come to light.

Nobody here knows what CS’s genitalia looks like.

I honestly do not think anyone is asking that question. That visual check is what has led us to the problem isn't it?

Did you not bother to not the word “sometimes”? Which um is the same thing as “not always”?

Nor did I say that there were only XY stories out there, but the ones they linked to were three specific stories.

The story you linked is one of someone with CAIS which we know Caster does not have because of the damn regulations don’t apply to someone with CAIS.

I think you are just being deliberately obtuse at this point.

*not bother to read

Jessica that is a very interesting article.

I think the problem is that the evidence is always going to be on the weak side because the pool of athletes with specific DSDs is always going to be small.

I thought is was very interesting when it said that, although a completely different issue, the trans issue may have led to this decision (which the author thinks is a decision based on concepts not evidence).

And I know anecdotes are not data, but (to me) the Rio Olympics showed the way female sport was heading without this ruling.

And a reminder that it is possible to complain to the BBC if you feel they are reporting something inaccurately.

Claire Graham and Miranda Yardley discussing The CS case.

(No sound for the first 2 mins!)

RussianSpamBot

"Caster doesn't really have the same build as the athletes who do best in the 5k and 10k."

Well, there is as we now know, quite a good reason for that, however, CS does have a very similar physique at 5' 10" / 11st to some of the greatest ever male runners over those distances - Emil Zatopek, Ron Clarke, Herb Elliot, Steve Ovett.
I also think that CS could lose 3 or 4 kilos quite easily.
I am struggling to remember the last time CS collapsed at the end of a race, unlike her competitors who were 20 or 30 metres adrift.

I’m finding the media coverage of this frustrating as it obfuscates the actual ruling.

The ruling applies very clearly and specifically to:
athletes with DSD
With XY chromosomes
Who experience an androgenising effect.

And no one else. Not CAIS XY women. Not XX women of any make up or testosterone level.

It’s not the level of testosterone, it’s what their bodies do with it.

www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/testosterone

These athletes were assigned female at birth on the basis of not having clearly defined male genitals. Put in the “not male” box. They then went through a version of male puberty which gave them greater muscle and strength, and it has taken 10 years for this to be defined as not ok in a small percentage of women’s sports.

I really don’t understand why the ruling doesn’t cover all women’s sports.

I really don’t understand why the ruling doesn’t cover all women’s sports.

Each sport is responsible for their own rules. So IAAF banned Russia from the Olympics but other sports did not. IAAF covers track and field and Seb Coe is president who is friends with Paula Radcliffe ......

I'm also fond the coverage problematic. People genuinely think these new rules apply to women and not DSD. They think it's akin to PCOS which it's not. They are just simple not aware that DSD athletes can have similar and in rare cases more testosterone than men.

I watched the MY and CG video which was good in parts. I couldn't agree that not being able to have biliogical children should / could be rewarded by competing in sports with high testosterone theory.

Thank you Jenny17. Even all athletics would be better than the targeted 3 races.

This guy is actually talking about the crucial aspects of the decisions and makes a specific point of saying sex cannot be changed

Oh FFS. My local WEP branch has just posted" 👊 WE stand with Caster Mokgadi Semenya
Ruling to intrusively medicate/control naturally high #testosterone in women is prejudiced
Compelling discrimination against intersex #LGBTQ
Totally dismisses the different genetic structures of women
IAAF: Let Caster Semenya run #HandsoffCaster - Sign the Petition!

Oh god, WEP is truly shit

Indeed!

@orchidinthesun Caster Semenya is 46, XY (with testes and no womb or ovaries) and is not the same as a women with say PCOS that has "high" testosterone of around 3 or 4.

No woman will have to medicate to reduce their testosterone only intersex athletes that are genetically male.

I don't think the article inappropriatly conflates intersex and trans issues. I think that does happen a lot, so it becomes a sensitive issue.

But to me this article is making a fairly technical argument, both from a medical and legal perspective. Where she talks about trans persons it is because the specific argument or legal issue would apply to both - there are some overlaps in the issues around how we define "woman" for the purpose of sport.

As well, I think questions around the trans angle, which have become political in a way that intersex conditions never really were, have probably resulted in some of the lack of clarity in the public discussion around this. I really think the media's tendency to simply accept at face value the statement that she is female, and their hesitance to talk about the fact that she is XY, or has testes, is down to the trans advocacy movement, not intersex considerations. A certain group of people are convinced that they have to support XY men who transition as being really women, and there is a lot of political will behind it at the moment, so the sporting bodies have chosen to allow that. They know darn well what having men in women's sport would do, so they also have to try and mitigate it somehow through regulating hormone levels. Who knows, if they were only talking about making decisions about intersex athletes, if they would take some other approach. It's all being defined by what is politically possible around trans issues. So I think it's probably impossible for the author to avoid talking about it.

As far as athletes and the level playing field - I agree that seems like it ought to be true, but for some reason, in elite sports it isn't. Part is of course pressures from sponsors, governments, but I think there is more to it than that. Something about that culture can go a little wrong somehow, maybe it's just something extremely competitive people are at risk for? Or something about the way training psychology is approached?