Need to just get this out

[AvonCallingBarksdale]

I was at a work event today with lots of other third sector organisations. I got talking to two women from a nearby support centre for sexual assault and abuse. I mentioned that I used to work at a neighbouring rape crisis centre. I commented that their leaflet says they support women and those identifying as female over the age of 16. Apparently they were “inundated” by requests for support from people identifying as female, so changed their literature to reflect this. Inundated, really?? It takes years for many women to come forward and speak. It’s a constant struggle for funding to keep rape crisis centres open. And yet here we are, responding quickly to those who identify as female. Not sure what I’m hoping for from this post, but I’ve come away feeling really bewildered/frustrated and, yes, depressed.

Christ. That is depressing. Men who have been raped all eager to talk and in sure they would be believed when women have to give their phones to the police to prove they haven't been begging for casual sex from their rapists.

The world we live in gets crazier by the day.

They were targeted by TRA lobbying. If they had any critical faculties they'd have realised this.

TRAs also targeted the Freedom Programme with emails suggesting that their language was transphobic and telling them how to make the language trans-inclusive blah blah.

FP put the emails on twitter with the message "Fuck that" iirc.

But then, FP is not dependent on Government funding. The ones that are, find those funds taken away very quickly if they don't follow the trans narrative.

To be fair, this points to a need. That doesn't mean that Rape Crisis etc are in a position to provide a service to transgender users, in my view.

It's obvious that transgender users want to explore the impact of life-changing sexual encounters, whether as children or adults. The experience may well have led to gender dysphoria. The service wasn't open to them before, but now it is, and there's a spike in demand.

For me, it points to a gap in provision. Transgender people will have to do what women did to plug the gaps - they will have to build their own bespoke services. This is already happening in places like Manchester, with the LGBT Foundation.

If women have to share resources with men, it is likely that they will boycott Rape Crisis. Women will create new services and not look back as the services that they founded and built and staffed and fund-raised for, wither away and lose their reputations.

Pandora's box has been opened and women will not get back in the box.

It’s just so exhausting. I worked at RC for four years and some of the service users were broken but still trying so bloody hard each day. And now bit by bit the only bloody safe spaces are being eroded .

Yes I see there may be a need, but for me it’s a need to create their own centres.

Exactly. Why not just get their own funding then if sexual assault is at such crisis levels among trans women? Surely Mermaids and Stonewall could dig into their deep pockets to find a trans-focused rape crisis service. That would be better than draining resources from services that are intended to support vulnerable women who have experienced male violence.

It’s obvious that transgender users want to explore the impact of life-changing sexual encounters, whether as children or adults. The experience may well have led to gender dysphoria. The service wasn't open to them before, but now it is, and there's a spike in demand

I agree, OtherPam and it’s important that people are support. That support, however, might be quite different to the support that RC staff have been trained to give, especially in regards to the bit in bold.

Seperate, specialists services are required. Surely Stonewall can help with funding them? Women’s services are already overstretched without a new and separate user base flooding in.

to fund* that should read

I would think that TW experience abuse and assault in a manner similar to gay men. They won't be isolated by having children, financially dependent because of that, be much smaller and weaker as women tend to be.

I think there should be services to cater for this need, but it makes more sense for there to be LGBT centres than for TW to join with women.

If the numbers are too small, then surely other options need to be considered. Perhaps a spare room system where TW offer a room to another TW escaping abuse?

Please note that I am not saying males who identify as trans do not ever suffer rape or domestic violence. They do and we should have dedicated services to support them. Which is entirely possible without damaging women's services.

The mantra "transwomen are women" is particularly unhelpful when it comes to care, health, welfare and support services. In fact, it ensures that transgender people will not get the kind of services that they need.

We've seen how the NHS and health organisations are at pains to avoid the elephant in the room - that TWs are men and need male-appropriate care. It is not in the best interests of men to be lumped together with females when it comes to healthcare and welfare.

This is another Own Goal by the trans lobby.

theOtherPamAyres Exactly. Probably why most of those who have come out in support are transsexuals who have or who seek to medically transition. They know first-hand the dangers of the treatments they are seeking and possible long-term consequences. But their voices seem not to matter either.

@MNHQ Not sure why you deleted my post. I heard this firsthand from providers of women's services. I chose to be non-specific as it would put the women's services in question at risk. But it speaks directly to the OP's observation that the claim of services being inundated by males contradicts her experience of working with victims.

Please explain how my comment violated the guidelines.

CharlieParley I didn’t see the post that MNHQ deleted but I agree with your comment here:
“speaks directly to the OP's observation that the claim of services being inundated by males contradicts her experience of working with victims.”

Apparently they were “inundated” by requests for support from people identifying as female, so changed their literature to reflect this.

That's interesting. In Wales, Welsh Women's Aid were funded by the Welsh Government to produce a trans inclusive policy, so they had no real choice.

www.welshwomensaid.org.uk/2018/04/transgender-inclusion-statement/

Talking about trans-appropriate services, let's not forget the stupidity of Penny Mordaunt's department during LGBT health week. Referring to women's health, the minister said she wanted to hear from lesbian, bi and transwomen.

As ever, transmen (female) were forgotten for fear of offending the trans validation lobby. And yet, transmen suffer from extraordinary chronic and painful conditions due to their transition, as well as their female biology. Only women's organisations reminded the Minister that Transmen are not men and had the same health and welfare needs as women.

I would not exclude a transman from services like Rape Crisis, knowing that many of them have dysphoria linked to rape and childhood sexual abuse.

This is yet another Own Goal for the trans lobby - ensuring that transmen are side-lined and overlooked when their needs could be catered for by women's services. If only they were honest enough to admit it.

Ok, so it indicates a need.

Should women (and usually children in tow) lose places and space and facilities and have their service redirected in focus to now a large body of males in high need? Or should a service now address the specific needs of trans people in the way that this service was created to meet the specific need of women?

There are no statistics on domestic violence for TW. As I remember, on a previous thread when someone tried to find out about this high need, the answer was 'well it's assumed as TWAW that the rate is the same for women, and as everything is always so much worse for trans people we added a bit'. So it's a bit hearsay/vague to put it mildly as to what the actual need is.

Factor in the first hand evidence from the transwidow thread that many of their transitioning exes have declared they have experienced domestic abuse - by which they mean their wife misgendered them, or used the name they've known throughout the marriage. So again I am slightly cynical shall we say about whether women battling for a place in a refuge to escape after a broken nose/attempted strangling/ being made to feed three kids on 17p per meal with no food allowance themselves as has been seen on MN, are competing for places with born males experiencing the same, or experiencing more 'literal violence'/hurt feelings.

Surely Mermaids and Stonewall could dig into their deep pockets to find a trans-focused rape crisis service. That would be better than draining resources from services that are intended to support vulnerable women who have experienced male violence.

This this this.

I dug down on this claim that males who identify as trans suffer higher instances of domestic violence than women. Worked my way through various reports (this referring to that, that referring to these etc).

Finally identified the study the claim came from and again, things are not as they seem. The usual problems - self-reported survey, small numbers, but most importantly what was supposed to be domestic violence inexplicably included abuse by landlords and other non-domestic perpetrators. It also didn't specify who the persons reported on were (as we know, the male trans community is not homogenous at all).

I would absolutely believe that male HSTS who have medically transitioned experience higher rates of domestic abuse than females because as the name says, they are homosexual and their partners are male, there are unique trigger points and we know from surveys on gay partnerships that violence can be a serious issue with incidence rates the same or higher than women (but that was never used to demand that gay male victims must now be prioritised over female victims, especially because on average the power differential is not the same for male couples).

However, any claims that late onset heterosexual transsexuals and crossdressers experience higher incidence rates of domestic violence than women are highly suspect. Because we know from the transwidows threads that abuse generally comes from the transitioning partner, again, the power differential is not in favour of the female partner (who in this scenario is supposed to be the abuser) and while women do indeed also commit domestic abuse, from empirical evidence, the prevalence of abusers among women is simply not large enough to bear out these claims.

the prevalence of abusers among women is simply not large enough to bear out these claims.

Lundy Bancroft has stated in his books that many of the male DV perpetrators he treats in the justice system who claim to have been abused by their female partners are found to have been lying and were merely claiming this in an attempt to deflect blame, gain sympathy and make themselves look less culpable in court/reduce consequences. He feels that the statistics of female on male dv are doubtful in veracity because of this.

I started a thread a while ago in the AMA topic about having worked at rape crisis, and there was a question v early on about what provision and support we offered to male survivors of sexual assault because, you know, it’s not just something that happens to women.

Michelleoftheresistance very interesting, thank you for that. I know from the refuge my mother used to run just how manipulative abusers are. Claiming to be the real victim is merely one of many techniques, but I never connected this to the actual stats on female abusers.

(And yet I've actually read posts on Mumsnet by women saying they accepted a caution for DV after their abuser complained to the police because they simply didn't know what to do.)

What's that article where someone who has researched/worked extensively around male victims says whenever she talks about research or services provided solely for men, no one ever asks 'and what about women?' and is pleased to celebrate something solely for men. Whereas when she posts anything about services for women she's inundated with angry what about the men demands as if services solely for women are wrong and selfish?