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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Dad who gave Birth 'Seahorse' Documentary

116 replies

OtepotiLilliane42 · 20/04/2019 13:12

McConnell, 32, started taking testosterone at 25 and had “top surgery” to remove breast tissue a year later. He considered a hysterectomy, but never went through with it – partly because he had not ruled out the possibility of having children. In the film, we see how discombobulated McConnell becomes when he stops taking testosterone as he tries to conceive, using a sperm donor, and his body, in effect, goes into reverse. He starts having periods again (“I don’t like the idea that I’ve got tampons in my bag,” he winces); his facial hair gets wispier, his hips broaden, his tummy softens and he starts to speak less from his chest and more from his throat. “Every time I think about it, I think, ‘What the fuck am I doing?’” he says. At one point, a tearful McConnell sobs into the camera in the middle of the night: “I feel like a fucking alien.

Throughout, he is encouraged by his mother, Esme, who tells him: “I loved being pregnant. Everybody should experience it – especially men.” McConnell tells me she used to say this to him when he was a child, long before she had any idea that her son was trans. On screen, his mother supports him with a mixture of tender loving care and the odd no-nonsense kick up the arse. Occasionally, when he’s feeling sorry for himself, she loses patience: “Why are you making such a fuss? It’s what you wanted.” Then she relents. “But, actually, it’s not as simple as that. It’s such a brave and amazing thing to do. I’m in awe of him, basically

This such a dishonest piece of reporting - Freddy may be a transman, but he is not the father of his baby, and shouldn't be reported as such, any more than the other transmen who have given birth over the past few years. I could say more, but it honestly it gets really tedious reading stories like this. (And 'brave and amazing - why? There seem to be so many psychological issues here, yet we are expected to view it all as the new norm.) The Guardian really should stop writing such drivel.

www.theguardian.com/society/2019/apr/20/the-dad-who-gave-birth-pregnant-trans-freddy-mcconnell

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ChattyLion · 20/04/2019 23:52

oh dear:

McConnell believes much of the antipathy has been fuelled by unlikely bedfellows – the “alt-right” and some feminists, who argue that biology is destiny and therefore trans women are not really women and trans men are not really men. “Many of these people haven’t met a trans person, and the monstering and caricaturing is not based on reality,” McConnell says. “Not everyone gets a chance to meet a trans person – but that is often what changes everything for someone who can’t get their head around it. So I thought this film could be in lieu of meeting somebody – you could spend an hour and a half with me.”

Sorry but people of all political persuasions know about human biology because all of us have to live in a body. We know what sex we are. And usually we know where babies come from and how humans are made.

I have total sympathy for anyone having distress about their body or the bullshit of gender norms. That must be horrible to live with and needs expert support.

But really it is NOT ‘monstering’ or ‘caricaturing’ anybody just to know scientific facts. Or to insist that those facts are relevant in our policy and law-making. Or to challenge social norms that are harmful - like gender stereotypes.

And nobody actually really thinks that a woman actually changes into a man. People are just being kind to people or being woke and denying their own real thoughts in favour of taking up an ideological position.

But you know, the Guardian, carry on demonising ‘some feminists’ who tell the truth and shine a light and care about safeguarding women and children.

Illyria47 · 21/04/2019 00:12

Ah, just clicked on to the Guardian, saw the headline, screamed internally, read the article, screamed some more. What on earth were his parents thinking to collude in this delusion. Thought must put this up on Mumsnet and reckoned it would already be up. They have a daughter who has mutilated herself in order to pretend she is a man.
I had better say he from now on but really Guardian. A man cannot give birth pure and simple. How many times does one have to say it. You can't change your biological sex. I don't give a flying fig if someone wishes to change their identity but don't ask the rest of us to believe in your delusion that you have actually changed your sex because you can't. Screams again.

OtepotiLilliane42 · 21/04/2019 01:15

ChattyLion I couldn't agree more with your post, especially when you point out this:

But really it is NOT ‘monstering’ or ‘caricaturing’ anybody just to know scientific facts. Or to insist that those facts are relevant in our policy and law-making. Or to challenge social norms that are harmful - like gender stereotypes.

What made me feel so angry about the Guardian article was the implication that anyone who refuses to accept the alternate reality that Freddy seems to be living in is horribly prejudiced, which is nonsense. I mean for heaven's sake Freddy knows they are a biological female otherwise Freddy couldn't get pregnant, and give birth! Freddy is not magically somehow male and female at the same time, and it astonishes me how many people are prepared to pander to such delusions. Can Freddy not see the contradictions in his wanting to rid himself of his 'femaleness' by surgically and chemically altering his body, yet having to rely on that same female body in order to achieve what he wanted, which was a child?

I do feel that the Guardian is being hugely irresponsible in the way in which it reports transgender stories. Ignoring the basic facts of human reproduction in order to promote a pernicious and dangerous ideology is actually quite astonishing for a paper of its stature.
The Global Development pages have excellent reports on the issues facing women from around the world, issues which arise from the facts of women's biology. The reporters who write those articles don't seem muddled as to the differences between male and female biology - so why the apparent confusion when the prefix 'trans' rears its head.
I wish the McConnell family well, but I see no reason why the Guardian should abandon its duty to report the truth when it writes on transgender issues.

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Time40 · 21/04/2019 01:37

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

OtepotiLilliane42 · 21/04/2019 04:14

The trailer for 'Seahorse'. There's a shot of Freddy reading a comment on twitter which says 'except there's no such thing as a pregnant man'.
A purely factual statement, which should offend no one who isn't living in denial of biological reality.

www.theguardian.com/film/video/2019/apr/02/seahorse-exclusive-trailer-for-new-documentary-about-the-dad-who-gave-birth-video

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FannyCann · 21/04/2019 04:50

The wise words of Philip Larkin spring to mind. I feel very sorry for the children born to these parents.

"Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don’t have any kids yourself."

OtepotiLilliane42 · 21/04/2019 10:09

A refreshingly sensible article from 2016. The Federalist is a fairly conservative US journal, so its political views don't align with mine on every issue, but regardless, common sense is common sense.

thefederalist.com/2016/09/07/dear-media-not-news-transgender-men-get-pregnant/

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ChattyLion · 21/04/2019 14:50

Agree with you Otepoti. I wish Freddie and Freddie’s little son all the very best and I am really glad they both have the baby’s grandparents around/family support.

I’m still really shocked though at the Guardian’s coverage of this film and of Freddie as the documentary subject. The Guardian’s complete abandonment of any sense of, you know, actual journalism in this article. As if only ‘some feminists’ and the ‘alt-right’ believe in physical reality? Or only they believe in the shitness of gender roles?

Where is the journalistic exploration of the political lines being spoken by Freddie? Where is the gentle probing asking Freddie to unpack these glib statements that he is making, just a little bit more?

And I would want to ask if Freddie feels that adherence to this ideology is serving Freddie’s own best interests and is making him happy? or indeed the interests of Freddie as a parent to Freddie’s little son- is this political outlook likely to make either of them happy? Given that this ideology was apparently so in conflict for Freddie when Freddie had the perfectly mundane human urge to reproduce?

Eg Freddie talking about getting pregnant and being pregnant: It took me so long to feel OK about wanting kids, because there’s a stigma attached to it,” he says. “It took me a long time to separate identity from biology. I’m just using my hardware to do a thing. It’s pragmatic.”

Why did Freddie need to feel he’s just using ‘his hardware’ (eggs, uterus, female body) to ‘just do a thing’? What is so wrong with the ‘thing’ that it can’t even be named? I notice that Freddie doesn’t say ‘pregnant’, he says ‘carry’ all the time. Why so? In what way is he not ‘pregnant’ like anyone else? What is he, if he is just ‘carrying’? What does that mean for transmen or for women?

And couldn't the journalist have gently asked about identity- about the individualistic aspects of identity and what relationship an individualised identity claim, has to being a member of a group or the group identity? Like with the describing Freddie as being a ‘gay, transgender man’? (in the trailer blurb: www.theguardian.com/film/video/2019/apr/02/seahorse-exclusive-trailer-for-new-documentary-about-the-dad-who-gave-birth-video)

How do gay men feel about that description? Or women? Or lesbians?

What about the obvious parallel to other birthing women when Freddie talks about giving birth? What in any of this makes Freddie ‘a man’? (except his beard which he seems to feel is a big part of it)?

Would journalists treat anyone else who flatly denies biological reality with such enormous, patronising, irresponsible, kid gloves?

And why didn’t the Guardian actually explore what kind of person is Freddie? Like what else does Freddie have going on in Freddie’s life apart from Freddie’s views on gender?

Oh hang on- Money. I presume the Guardian must have a financial interest in this film because they helped to make it.

So Hattenstone’s article is really just a promo for the Guardian’s own new film.

But is this really newspaper journalism? To completely abandon any sense of objectivity once there is money to be made? To demonise most people (whoops, sorry: ‘some feminists and the alt-right’Hmm) to give a bit of grit to an otherwise very self-absorbed, but clearly rather vulnerable person’s story?

Honestly the Guardian’s tone is so patronising and tokenistic. Don’t trans people like Freddie ever feel really insulted when they are (apparently) ‘lauded’ in such an othering, self-congratulatory way? (the Guardian patting itself on the back for being so benevolently ‘inclusive’?) And patting Freddie on the head all the while.. and while taking full advantage of the access Freddie apparently gave over 3 years...
Where are the journalistic ethics here?

The Guardian coverage is exactly like the Stepmother/Godmother character in the BBC 3 show Fleabag, introducing people at her wedding. This outrageously narcissistic person doesn’t have any real relationships. She says: ‘Oh here’s my lesbian friend, here’s my bisexual Syrian refugee friend, here’s my deaf friend..’ or whatever. It’s painful to watch. They are not truly friends.

The stepmother/godmother doesn’t know them as people or individuals or friends, they are just a collection of fashionable, exotic (to her) labels in human form demonstrating how interesting, worldly and tolerant she is. None of these people are individualised beyond those small facets of who they are.

Collecting woke points by treating living people as only representatives of something, is not treating people as people- human people are never one-dimensional. And so many people suffer for the labels that are put on them it’s actually really decadent and horrible to be colluding in all that.

Anyway- i’m sure we’re all looking forward to the next films that the Guardian will make, following other Guardian staffers’ personal lives and struggles.

I wonder if the Guardian have any women on their payroll who were let down by a partner at the trying to conceive stage or in early pregnancy, and then they decided to go it alone with a lot of support from their family who live very close nearby to them..? How supportive has the Guardian been to them? Have they found it easy or hard combining work at the Guardian with motherhood with no partner support? Hmm

GrumpyGran8 · 21/04/2019 18:08

Bravo ChattyLion - the Guardian as Fleabag's awful stepmother is spot on! Flowers
If anyone from the Guardian is reading this, could I ask you to make your next film about somebody who is, say , raising a disabled child or caring for an elderly relative, coping with divorce - you know the kind of problems that thousands of your readers are struggling with. And please forget about earning woke points by turning a staffer's life into a freak show!

OtepotiLilliane42 · 22/04/2019 05:20

Thank you ChattyLion for your thoughtful, nuanced analysis of Freddy's story, and the way in which the Guardian chose to report it.
I feel sorry at the loss of journalistic integrity shown by the current media when it comes to reporting on transgender issues. Simon Hattenstone should blush with shame for writing that article.

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ChattyLion · 22/04/2019 10:23

I saw that Freddy’s/the Guardian’s film and this promo interview with Simon Hattenstone in the Guardian has been picked up on by the Daily Mail, but it’s a rehash article pretty much:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6943105/Gay-transgender-man-tells-story-giving-birth-boy-despite-fears-trans-phobia.html

That said the Mail do allow BTL anonymous comments and discussion (anonymity can be important in allowing women to speak safely/feel safe to speak.)

The Guardian does not allow comments on Hattenstone’s article but it does have this at the end of the piece (note: not possible to reply anonymously to the Guardian itself Hmm)

If you would like a comment on this piece to be considered for inclusion on Weekend magazine’s letters page in print, please email [email protected], including your name and address (not for publication).

newtlover · 22/04/2019 21:05

I might just do that

Time40 · 23/04/2019 21:21

Oh my God - I had my message deleted by MNHQ. For God's sake - what on earth is going on here? It really wasn't anything too awful - it was just a statement of fact, and I think most of you here would have agreed with it. You're all totally right - there are things we are not allowed to say here.

It stinks, frankly. Why????

I feel like saying it again.

Time40 · 23/04/2019 21:25

... that's the first time in well over a year of being on MN that I've had a message deleted. It hurts, and it's shocking.

emerencealwayshopeful · 30/04/2019 00:15

A friend posted a link to an article about this film and I knew there would be a thread here.

As I've said elsewhere - what sort of person has a level of misogyny that means they are unable to cope with being 'read as' female (or to identify as female at all) while gestating and birthing - the most intensely female experiences possible? What sort of society encourages women to hate themselves so much? Why the fuck aren't we talking about this properly?

Observations - One article identified Freddy as trans and gay, which would mean heterosexual, and able to fall pregnant the old fashioned way? But elsewhere former partner (we are told) also has ovaries - but is also NOT female.

And 'According to figures compiled by Medicare for Australia, one of the few national surveys, 75 people who identified as male gave birth naturally or via C-section there in 2016, and 40 in 2017.'

That quote is terrifying. Who are all these male identified people who have babies??? What sort of world is this anyway?

Furthermore - as stated above, why all these stories about transmen who are pregnant and give birth? This is what biologically female people do, and will always do. This isn't news. And it shouldn't be presented as such.

In 2019 one of the most newsworthy things a biological female can do is be pregnant?

wmfinnegan · 11/06/2019 00:45

I've just watched Seahorse at Sheffield Doc/Fest and felt the need to respond to this thread. It is a beautifully made film from one of the UK's best documentary producers (Jeanie Finlay) and I'd suggest reserving judgement until you've had a chance to watch it, (I believe it will be on BBC 4 at some point later this year as part of the Storyville series).

It seems like this discussion was only started to attack the subject of the film/article, which feels like a pretty clear violation of the Mumsnet guidelines especially the statement on trans rights. This has been couched in a critique of the Guardian and how they are using their platform to promote a co-production, but that doesn't seem worthy of so much angst, especially as we are talking about a story in the weekend magazine's society section, not the front page.

I've generally found mumsnet to be a useful resource, but I just don't get the ranting and judgement. Freddy is the baby's dad. He also was pregnant. And, after everything he went through to have a baby and the general warmth and humanity that comes across in the film (as well as in person as he and Jeanie were at the screening for Q&A), I think he'll be a dedicated, loving, flawed parent, like everybody else on this forum.

Some of the ideas and issues raised by his story are challenging. But it seems like people find them threatening as well, or else I'm not sure why they are worth commenting on. Anyway - watch the film and decide for yourself. Or don't watch it - but don't rubbish it without having watched it.

Jeanie also had another brilliant film at Sheffield Doc/Fest that is a character-driven, full access look at the making of the last season of Game of Thrones (The Last Watch), if that is your cup of tea.

Datun · 11/06/2019 00:57

Freddy is the baby's dad. He also was pregnant

Does the baby have a mother?

GrumpyCatLives · 11/06/2019 01:02

If Freddie did not produce the sperm for his baby, then he is not the biological father. There’s no discussion there. It’s a fact.

However, many fathers aren’t biological, and there’s nothing wrong with that.

GrumpyGran8 · 11/06/2019 04:34

watch the film and decide for yourself. Or don't watch it - but don't rubbish it without having watched it
We're not rubbishing the film; I don't doubt that it's very well made. What we're rubbishing is an article that is uncritically pushing the mad idea of a woman magically turning into a man and then giving birth as a father.

wmfinnegan, Freddy's gender identity is as a man. But he is still a biological woman who became pregnant and gave birth. And there's nothing interesting or special about that. What could have made the film potentially worth watching (for me, at least) and illuminating would have been a Louis Theroux-type exploration of Freddy's partner and family and of Freddy himself as a person. Not as a "Look at the pregnant man!" freak show.

OtepotiLilliane42 · 11/06/2019 04:49

wmfinnegan as the person who initially posted the thread on the Seahorse documentary I would like to make my position clear. As I said in a follow up thread to my originaI post I wish Freddy, and son and family well, and I am sure Freddy is a loving and committed parent.

But simply put, Freddy is a young woman who wished to change her body sufficiently through drugs and surgery in order to live as a man, but who also kept her reproductive organs so that she could in the future become pregnant and have a baby.

The contradictions inherent in Freddy's twin desires to be both a male, and at the same time retain the necessary female reproductive organs in order to become pregnant and give birth must have been very stressful for Freddy, and I am sure that is faithfully reflected in the 'Seahorse' documentary.

But Freddy is the biological mother, not the father, of 'his' son, pronouns not withstanding, and it was the Guardian's almost wilful denial of that fact that irritated me. It seems to have become the norm for newspapers to report stories like Freddy's as some kind of biological anomaly, supported by the use of headlines such as 'The Dad who gave Birth'. I consider this kind of reporting irresponsible, and it shouldn't be encouraged.

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wmfinnegan · 11/06/2019 09:23

I guess what I'm confused by is the emphasis in this conversation on biological motherhood or fatherhood. If this was an article about foster or step-parents, or sperm donation, or someone not in a relationship getting IVF, I'm just not sure there would be almost 50 posts of people saying what that parent is or isn't. Somehow when trans identity is involved it elicits much stronger reactions from people.

GrumpyGran8 · 11/06/2019 09:37

wmfinnegan Since you've seen the film and I haven't, and its going to be months before it comes on TV, could you answer some questions about it?
1: Is there any exploration of why Freddy's Mum expressed happiness when her daughter became her son? Were other members of his family interviewed?
2: Is Freddy asked about why he kept his womb and ovaries after transition; was it just the fact that a complete hysterectomy is a major operation with some risks, or did he have other reasons?
3: Was Freddy asked why he used distancing language about his pregnancy? (According to the article, he avoided saying "pregnant" and talked about "carrying" a baby, rather as though it were a bag he could put down at any time!)
4: Was he asked if his feelings of gender identity changed at all during his pregnancy?
Thanks in advance if you can answer any of those.

Babdoc · 11/06/2019 09:41

Wmfinnegan, maybe there’s no similar response to articles on step or foster parents because they aren’t delusional and denying physical reality?

DuMondeB · 11/06/2019 09:55

I guess what I'm confused by is the emphasis in this conversation on biological motherhood or fatherhood. If this was an article about foster or step-parents, or sperm donation, or someone not in a relationship getting IVF, I'm just not sure there would be almost 50 posts of people saying what that parent is or isn't. Somehow when trans identity is involved it elicits much stronger reactions from people

Parenthood consists of both biological and legal status.

Freddy is mother in both senses. It’s the emotional rejection of that material reality that is puzzling to me (and presumably, other Mumsnetters).

All the other scenarios you bring up involve taking on the material reality of either the legal or the biological status of motherhood.

XXVaginaAndAUterus · 11/06/2019 10:01

I feel so sad reading this and sort for Freddy. I perceive a person who is very unhappy and it comes across to me that their mum and the film makers have exploited his suffering.

Freddy talks about men feeling broody but he can't talk from the male perspective, because he isn't male. Likewise I think he can't really speak from a female perspective having been taking male hormones and having his body gone through significant changes. Freddy seems to be talking from the only perspective he truly can be - a trans male. And I feel upset for him - he comes across as desperately unhappy and uncomfortable in his own skin. I am reminded that many (or is it most?) trans people do not feel comfortable in their bodies pre-or post- transition. To me it seems that freddy desperately needs psychological support, but I'm not aware that he has had or continues to receive any.

It is a beautifully made film from one of the UK's best documentary producers (Jeanie Finlay) and I'd suggest reserving judgement until you've had a chance to watch it

I would like to watch it but I'm in two minds about the ethics of even that. It just seems to exploit freddy.