Chromosomes and Pronouns

[OhHolyJesus]

Just an idea...if faced with a debate about TWAW I think I'm not going to ask about birth sex and get the 'assigned at birth' rubbish and I'm not interested in male/female brains or the feelz...I think I'm going to ask what someone's chromosomes are.

I'd expect to be told they haven't done a DNA test and I'd suggest they have one to get clarity.

Is this a useless tactic or could it catch on like genderfree? Genderfree can't be debated as you have to respect identity and could chromosomes get us out of this mess? Interested in thoughts, unlike some I encourage a discussion

It's probably been shared before but it was this that made me think of it. I think Bronwyn Winter makes a lot of sense and expresses herself more eloquently than I ever could.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=HlM_EsgaET4

I have thought for a long time that all babies should have their chromosomes checked at birth - its a simple blood test and could be done at the same time as the heel.prick test. why isn't it already? (They could also check blood type at same time, I find it ridiculous that I don't know my children's blood type)

People will argue against it because, well, eugenics. But i think it is sensible. The vast majority of people would get "normal looking chromosomes, XX, or XY sex. It would stop all the "assigned at birth" nonsense as your natal sex would be clear in vast majority of cases and it would stop all the drama llama "the evil midwife misassigned me at birth" nonsense.

The few babies with DSD issues observed in the sex chromosomes or other non-sex chromosome abnormalities could then be referred on for genetic counselingand appropriate treatment. The parents and medics would know from day one, stigma taken out of it a bit as would be more common place. Sensible choices could then be made about sex assignment for the miniscule amount of rare cases where it is unclear. Other DSD where the baby is geneticallynmale or female but with hormone etc issues due to mutation could be treated appropriately from day 1 to help ensure good outcomes at puberty etc. No distressing surprises at puberty, a hard enough time.

All the trans people who think they are different/special/wrong might grow up to accept themeselves as they are more readily, knowing that they are genetically standard i.e male/female but non gender conforming.

Shame the baby girls who don’t make it past pregnancy/long after birth can’t just decide to be male eh?

So what the hospital performs the test and then agrees to kill the female baby? I dont think that would happe People can already find out the sex of their babies before birth and observe it after birth. I dont see that genetic testing or confirmation after birth would increase the rate of selective termination of female foetuses or getting rid of female babies after birth as it wouldnt chnage anything in those cases.

I think the main argument would be £££ , plus privacy - if they are doing that why not just add to the DNA database at birth? I don't think I'd be happy. It's quite easy for most of us to tell what baby we have s we change the nappies.

It would cost a fortune that the NHS would then have to cut from budgets elsewhere. All to appease the egos of narcissist TRAs. It’s a NO from me!

They take blood anyway and process it from the heelprick test so I am not convinced that money is a huge issue in the West at least. Problems I see are it not being feasible in poorer countries. Also, you're right, if they sequence and record the DNA. Medically, as a scientist, I am all for that and would prefer to know as early as possible of my children had say a predisposition for heart disease or cancer so i could take appropriate steps. But I appreciate not everyone feels like that. And of course you can see the potential for abuse if insurance companies etc were able to get their hands on the data. However im not talking about full genome sequencing (which happens now anyway if someone has a suspected genetic condition), just morphological checks of the chromosome, as they already do if you have amnio/CVS in pregnancy. It should be possible to do that within current GDPR guidelines for all babies, rather than just some as happens now.

I don't get the whole female brain in a male body thing anyway. DNA exists in every cell, including brain cells so to me it's pretty clear that XY is male and XX is female.

I don’t see the point of testing someone’s chromosomes at birth as the visual test - just looking - is so accurate.

If there are doubts about the sex because of ambiguous genitalia then go ahead but doing it routinely is a waste of money.

You would literally risk your life undergoing surgery based on a biopsy less reliable than looking in a baby’s nappy to determine their sex. You would spend a lifetime on drugs based on a HIV test less reliable.

Very true. But how many of those clearly normal babies will grow up and claim to be "born in the wrong body" have ladybrains and all that nonsense. A lot of the current, massive, is it fourfold increase in trans referals in teens in the UK? continues. Would it not help counter that and help people just live as they are, be it gay men, feminine men, masculine girls, lesbians etc etc. I do totally agree with you about observing the sex being more that sufficient in 99.999% of cases (and genetic testing would already be done on the other .001%). I just worry it will no longer be deemed as sufficient in years to come when midwives are already being prevented from calling people male or female.

I suppose if they hadn't reformed the GRA it could have just been part of the process for people with MH issues around gender which would save the cost of doing it for everyone .....oh, wait, its not a medical.issue anymore.

There is no reason behind trans ideology thinking. It doesn't make sense, and attempts to counter the nonsense with sense won't work.
There is no way to reason with the unreasonable. Their rules aren't consistent, there are no universal principles. The only rule they stick to is that they are the ones to make, bend, break rules and others must comply.

It really is a religious belief and the only way to hold it is to build armour to reason, facts and logic. It's the belief that magic is more powerful than facts.

You can only hope to convince those that haven't actually thought things through yet but still have the capability and desire to do that.

Sex exists. The rest is just wishful thinking.

Yeah, you're most probably right. Someone I know who is post-op MTF trans (Thailand) claims that she is "more of a woman" than I am because she has had synthetic hormones and that she has "female DNA" despite having grown up as an entirely normal (gay) man until the age of 21. I find it hard to believe no one would have spotted these abnormalities in any of the extensive surgeries but she is adamant that she was misassigned at birth. I personally think her only issue at birth was being unfortunate enough to be born to parent who were deeply homophobic and bullied her to be "more of a man". She now lives with an older man "who isn't gay" but left his wife and kids before he met her after being found having sex with a man in the woods near their home. People's capacity for self delusion is formidable in this I guess.

I agree with Barracker. More proof won’t make any difference. The same extremists would start to insist that sex/gender was unrelated to chromosomes, just as they currently argue it’s unrelated to genitalia.

Is this a useless tactic or could it catch on like genderfree?

It's just a waste of time and money.

Everyone knows what man, woman, male and female means. Some just pretend not to to show their dominance, others pretend to keep these dominant people happy.

I agree there's not point trying to argue with logic because logic isn't the driving force behind the movement.

Barracker is right as other PPs, there's no arguing with it. I suppose I was thinking of another way to talk about biological sex. I don't care if a trans person is pre or post surgery, what hormones they have taken they are either one thing or another and I was thinking of another tactic but like flat earthers it will be shouted down and ignored like all others.

It was an interesting video though, I'm going to look for more stuff about Bronwyn Winter.

It’s like trying to reason with creationists. There’s no evidence for evolution that will ever convince them. The difference is that you can still be a perfectly functioning human being even if your school or parents convinced you that the Earth is only 4,000 years old. It’s not going to leave you sterile.

I have thought for a long time that all babies should have their chromosomes checked at birth - its a simple blood test and could be done at the same time as the heel.prick test. why isn't it already?

There wouldn’t be much point. Over 99.98% of babies you can tell visually if they’re male or female with no ambiguity. A karyotype (basically a physical look at the shape) doesn’t pick up all causes of intersex conditions, such as a tiny portion of y being stuck onto an x for example. To do that you need to tag and ‘light up’ that bit and that’s an expensive thing to do. Also other single gene causes wouldn’t be picked up.

The system we have now is absolutely fine. 0.02% of people are in that ‘not quite sure visually’ category. They need more extensive investigation to be sure, and that’s time consuming and expensive.