US: Female student expelled for kneeing boy in the groin while in girls' bathroom

[StopThePlanet]

• Boys attempt to invade girls bathroom as a protest against TM in their bathroom taking selfies

• Random girl not involved in protest or support of TM

• Girl feels trapped in girls' bathroom by boys and knees boy in groin

• Boys reprimanded, not suspended or expelled and get to attend prom

• Girl is expelled for violence and misses prom

• No adult witnesses to knee to groin

kutv.com/news/nation-world/student-expelled-for-bathroom-incident

Juxtaposed against:

• 10yr old girl is bullied by one 12yr old boy plus five other boys

• The six boys beat the crap out of the girl

• Teacher says "I can't believe it if I did not see it"

• Boys receive six days of suspension

• After returning from suspension one of the boys kicked a ball at the girl, striking her in the face

• School principal recommends girl change schools

www.google.com/amp/s/www.nwfdailynews.com/news/20190413/police-4th-grade-girl-beaten-by-6-boys-at-lakeland-school%3ftemplate=ampart

Juxtaposed against:

• 11yr old black boy refuses to say pledge of allegiance

• Substitute teacher reprimanded him (dumbass wasn't aware of Supreme Court ruling in 1943 that saluting the flag and saying the pledge aren't compulsory)

• Verbal argument ensues, no violence

• Kid is arrested for "becoming disruptive and refusing to follow repeated instructions by school staff and law enforcement."

www.local10.com/news/florida/florida-sixth-grader-arrested-after-dispute-over-pledge-of-allegiance

Well isn't this just precious? Uh huh keep telling me how females are treated as equals oh yeah and that all races are treated equally here in the US.

With liberty and justice for all... unless you are female or a racial minority. Move along, nothing to see here.

Also I am a mother of sons, Ive told them that if anyone makes then feel unsafe or touches them in a way they don't feel safe they knee in the balls and run. But I've also told them that they respect other people or that they should expect to be the one kneed in the balls. It's so easy to avoid being kneed in the balls. If I was the mother of one of those boys he'd be grounded till he was 30

stop

Im exactly the same

I do at least 3 posts at a time

belgian

Ive no intention of arguing, we both have our opinion on this one and i doubt ether one of us will shift much at all

With the information i have been given on this thread i think group of lads refusing to let a lass OUT of the toilets is wrong

If they were stopping the girls from getting in...well I'd probably have less of a problem

Sorry guy

I didnt finish the thread before replying and i see youve sai dthe same

See stop see!!!!

I give boys enough credit to think they know that a group of males locking a woman in a toilet is threatening.

If this had happened to one of the female teachers, the adult men would be sacked and in jail.

Also the mother of three boys and 100% with Guyliner on this.

At school the boys used to put their hands up our skirts if they were behind us on the way up the stairs, and down our shirts if they were behind us on the way down. One day, in year 9, a boy put his hand down my bra and I hit him so hard the whole staircase froze with the sound. You know who complained the most? The other girls. "He was only messing around" etc etc. The other boys never touched me again. And the one who did it was ashamed and apologised. But the girls all defended him.

We don't need to cheerlead and whoop about girls using violence to make boys stop whatever it is they're doing, but I do think girls need to know that if that's what it takes, then that's what it takes. And boys should be aware of that too.

She was scared, she'd had enough, they're bigger and stronger, she did what she thought would get her out of there. End of. She should not be expelled. Taken to one side and told "understandable, but don't do it again" - Yes. Detention for violence - yes. But expelled is ludicrous. I'm a secondary teacher and kids do a lot worse and get fixed term exclusion.

Taken to one side and told "understandable, but don't do it again" - Yes. Detention for violence - yes.

I disagree. She should not be told that she shouldn't use reasonable force if males are behaving aggressively towards her. This could leave her thinking that if a man was trying to rape her, she would be punished if she tried to defend herself. Telling her she can't use reasonable force to defend herself just makes her more vulnerable to male violence.

The other boys never touched me again. And the one who did it was ashamed and apologised. But the girls all defended him.

The boys know it's wrong. The question is, why don't the girls know it's wrong?

OldCrone I do actually agree with you, I think girls should be told that they do what it takes and what they need to do. No hesitation.

But from a school's perspective they have to be able to say they've dealt with the violent behaviour and that includes telling a student not to use violence. So I don't think it's the right answer, but as a response from a school it's more in line with what she did than expulsion. A school cannot say to a boy who was kneed in the balls "you had it coming so we're not doing anything to the girl". They just can't. They can punish them both, and punish the boys more severely to show that they've provoked the situation. But they've got to be seen to be dealing with her too. Especially in the litigious USA.

That that in turn creates a culture where girls are scared of being punished if they defend themselves is a massive issue. But it's a radical overhaul of how male aggression is viewed in schools and means the DFE and head teachers need to be firm enough to say to the parents of boys "Yes your son was hurt, but because he was acting aggressively towards a girl and we encourage girls to take appropriate action to defend themselves". Until that happens they're too scared of those parents and it's easier to justify punishing a girl for violence than to support her.

I would estimate from the responses from the mothers of boys on this thread that some parents of boys would be okay with such a speech from a HT and would deal with their sons further, but that some parents would consider this an injustice and kick up a storm. Which is why she's been expelled...

A school cannot say to a boy who was kneed in the balls "you had it coming so we're not doing anything to the girl". They just can't.

Surely that depends on the situation - and in this one, if the reports are accurate, her actions were justified. Boys need to know that even if they thought what they were doing was harmless and they had no intention of physically attacking the girl, that what they did was wrong. The boys need to be better educated, certainly, and this should have been a good opportunity for a learning experience for them.

They can punish them both, and punish the boys more severely to show that they've provoked the situation. But they've got to be seen to be dealing with her too.

How can we teach girls to assert their boundaries and stand up for themselves if we're telling them not to fight back when they feel threatened? That if they're attacked, they might be punished if they fight back? Do you think what she did was wrong? What would you have done?

Cross-posted with your last post, Fingon.

That girl did nothing wrong and if my son pulled this bullshit his life would not be worth living.

This should be seen as an act of bullying, because that's what it is. If a group of girls had barred this girl's way out of the toilets, and she had thumped one of them, what would the school have done? Would they have punished them all? Would they have punished the victim more than the bullies?

Do you think what she did was wrong? What would you have done?

I've already said I don't think she was wrong. And given an example of when I did something similar. Which, incidentally, I expected to be punished for, but wasn't because no one reported it to a teacher.

The problem is that this boy has clearly complained, and possibly his parents too, and schools have a set of guidelines they have to follow. And someone will have argued that feeling threatened doesn't justify a violent reaction. It doesn't matter that I think she was right, that the head teacher might think she was right, they're going to have to do something because it's been raised. In the states it's even easier to sue a school, and a principle will be terrified of that.

As I said, the system needs to be entirely overhauled, because the current situation is not okay.

But even within the current framework, the punishment is disproportionate and the school could have dealt with it in many less severe ways. The fact they didn't makes it even more disgraceful.

Ah, sorry another cross post OldCrone

"you had it coming so we're not doing anything to the girl". They just can't.

They can though. Self defence is different to two kids getting into a fight where both are equal parties. In your example where you were sexually touched there's no right or wrong response. Asking him politely wouldn't have worked. Locking a girl in a bathroom is a quite agressive act. If she had hit them for not letting her in the toilet because she needed to change her pad. I'd understand they have to punish her even though I'd have sympathy for the fact that she was in a shit situation to begin with. The law accounts for shades of grey with regards to retaliation and schools can do the same. Otherwise the boys could simply do it again safe in the knowledge the girl would be afraid to fight back.

But it wasn't just a subjective feeling of threat that caused her to hit the boy. It was a specific violent act of trapping her. Unlawful imprisonment isnt the same as just feeling threatened. If she had hit them purely for being in the toilet that would be down to a feeling. She was trying to escape and had no other means to do so.

And I 100% don't believe you should have been punished for what happened to you. We had something happen to dd, and I specifically told the teachers and head that dd had been instructed to shut it down as best she could (swif kick somewhere nasty) and they all agreed with me that self defence was fine.

Otherwise the boys could simply do it again safe in the knowledge the girl would be afraid to fight back.

And that's the message all the children at that school have been given. Boys can be as aggressive as they want towards the girls, and if the girls fight back they'll be punished more than the boys.

*if anything were to ever happen again like it. They obvously dealt with the child at the time. Dd had been afraid to defend herself at the time though as thought she'd get in trouble .

Watching and waiting to find out how far something will go before getting yourself safe is a bad idea.

If a group of girls had barred this girl's way out of the toilets, and she had thumped one of them, what would the school have done? Would they have punished them all? Would they have punished the victim more than the bullies?

I can give you a concrete example of this one as I used to teach in a girls' school.

The girl who had thumped one would have had a punishment. Depending on damage done that might be a telling off, a detention or an exclusion. I've seen first and last options. First option for pushing a girl out of the way and against a wall, third option (internal exclusion) for a hard slap that left a bleeding fingernail track.

The bullies in these incidents were also punished. First incident, with a massive, massive telling off, put on behaviour report, and a pointed Head of Year conversation with the whole class that left them squirming (year 7 age).

Second occasion, one bully 2 day internal exclusion, plus detention, plus behaviour report, second bully detention and behaviour report. Both told any further incidents would lead to proper fixed term exclusion. Year 10.

I've only ever seen one student expelled. She brought a knife to school to "show them". Not "to show them" in the menacing way, just "I thought they might like to see my knife" according to her. The whole year group got a massive bollocking because lots of them saw it and didn't report it.

@FingonTheValiant and for the record i know you're not agreeing with what the boys did or the way the school handled it! I'm only disagreeing with the idea that the school cant make allowances in this situation. I appreciate that it isnt easy for them and they will likely have rhe boys parents all complain. Im fact id really like to know if the boys are involved im sport as that's enough of a reason for them to have been given a get out of jail free card on some schools.

I agree schools in theory can apply a different approach, but they often don't. As I said, it's easier for them to justify punishing violence than to support girls. I've taught in 4 schools and I don't think any of them would actually have backed up this girl for kneeing a boy in the balls. They would all have punished the boys as well though.

This is also an issue of dealing with incidents which happen outside the classroom - bathrooms, playgrounds, locker areas, staircases. In the classroom and teacher deals with it as they see it. (But even that is tricky now due to online harrassment thay spills over...). Without a teacher as a witness I think schools are inclined to keep themselves out of trouble first and foremost.

Watching and waiting to find out how far something will go before getting yourself safe is a bad idea. Totally agree with this, we teach this to students.