Lady Brain Science

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Hello. I have searched but cannot find an article I recall which thoroughly debunked some of the brain science research. Would be most helpful if anyone can locate it for me.

I came out as GenderFree on Facebook and a friend has linked about 10 articles and I'd like to give her a comprehensive rebuttal.

Thanks in advance

Can you share the links they've posted? Would be interesting to see what "lady brain science" is floating around out there.

This one is good:

sfonline.barnard.edu/neurogenderings/eight-things-you-need-to-know-about-sex-gender-brains-and-behavior-a-guide-for-academics-journalists-parents-gender-diversity-advocates-social-justice-warriors-tweeters-facebookers-and-ever/

Try Cordelia Fine's 'Delusions of Gender' as a resource.

Fine is one of the authors of that post I linked to. Another is Gina Rippon. It summarises all the main points one by one so it’s an excellent go-to for rebutting nonsense online.

But definitely read Fine and Rippon’s books because they go into more detail.

Thanks for that link about evaluating sex/brain studies. Nice to have it laid out so clearly. If anyone has access to science journals, I'd really like to get behind the paywall.
So here are the links my friend gave me:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2754583/
Probs I see here: Very small sample size. Age (23-72 and brain plasticity), doesn't ask about sexual orientation or "type" of trans.
Anything else? The study itself actually points out some limitations.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20562024?fbclid=IwAR2Eddqy5Zp-QlfgcB4q7JEhD_KXXI9QQf-PNOCGyCousISdWTzWwRsQn_Y

This one studied white matter in FTM. Probs (other than paywall: very
small sample size, control group were all heterosexual females.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18980961?fbclid=IwAR1ufX31N-U69g67UHB4OPDKrbYsPmUjU2RJOByoGypBcgf6pU_8cnhoyl8
This one studied post mortem. Can only go by abstract

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm?fbclid=IwAR3bL9zFTvIcu-06al5DJg43lde0Aoo1GCu_aViJVgKDmK2S5GnHNutAeQQ
This is an article reporting on the findings of a study at an endicrinology meeting. Doesn't include the study, but appears to have a conflict of interest? Also has a pink brain illustration (kok)

www.the-scientist.com/features/are-the-brains-of-transgender-people-different-from-those-of-cisgender-people-30027?fbclid=IwAR0AKo1GTE4f8KG_ewgkDgMfSN5ts-imUt8Q2fEcp1fyvO_2DX-f0Vq9gU8
This one is a sort of review of the literature.

journals.aace.com/doi/abs/10.4158/EP14351.RA
Again with the fcking paywall. A review of the literature. But looks like it is often cited.

• Results: Evidence that there is a biologic basis for gender identity primarily involves (1) data on gender identity in patients with disorders of sex development (DSDs, also known as differences of sex development) along with (2) neuroanatomical differences associated with gender identity. Conclusions: Although the mechanisms remain to be determined, there is strong support in the literature for a biologic basis of gender identity*. www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2008/10/27/2401941.htm?fbclid=IwAR2MxkYF-RBzyTr3wMeENvvktSpe6pDOIcXR6WtZCYbp9e8nqguS_GkwbKo This one is a pop story reporting on a study looking at genes, the SRY and how androgenizing hormones prenatally may affect gender identity.

www.jsm.jsexmed.org/article/S1743-6095(15)30695-0/fulltext
This one on a specific gene expression in FtM looks very interesting, but no access (damn) Also has a good sample size

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7477289?fbclid=IwAR2Jm6bi-x2PjOJW0m_TAgXPIpwo3XNt9ZN8mSXHf-fEVS8_9f3iH4fXv3A
Again paywall, but looking at hormones in fetal dev't.

And she sums it up thus (after assuring me she "loves me to bits"God I hate that phrase: * So to wrap up, gender identity (traditionally a social construct) and sex (determined by external genital but not necessarily the full story such as in the case of intersex individuals) are two separate things. Gender identity has historically been considered a social construct until the last 20 years as scientists have discovered biological markers for gender identity determined by various genes, hormones, brain structure, etc.
Discriminating against and oppressing transgender people based on your opinions/ fears/ discomfort is the same as discriminating against people based on the color of their skin and frankly [my name], it's beneath you.
This agenda of heteronormative, cisgender views on sex, sexuality, and gender only serve the purpose of division and distraction. None of it matters. Just let people be themselves because we have much more important issues in front of us.
We're facing catastrophic harm due to climate change which will destroy all life as we know it. I'm exhausted with this tired rhetoric of "us vs. them" when we owe it to ourselves and every life form supported through this planet to save the only home we have. We're not going to be able to recover our home as long as we're distracted and divided by thoughts about how others are different and we don't like them because of it. Get over it because we have more important work to do.*

The article I can't find is one that showed how brain differences were more related to sexual orientation than gender identity.
Sorry this is so long, but if anyone can help me articulate better, and perhaps in a concise way, I would very much appreciate your expertise.
Thanks for the support. This has been rather exhausting, but I'm finding some friends are genuinely curious and starting to engage their brains. And I do believe the GenderFree narrative is liberating.

Forgot this one:
www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html?fbclid=IwAR2cCmkqnHZoMjZ9xCz8fngKXQMO90r3Tsoj17lPJI8M-kQYOcJGLjN3WbE

And by the way, I already shut her down on the intersex bullshit and she seems to accept that. She's in New Zealand, (raised here in US), about 35, white, married, het, non science professional, working class background,1 adult child.

Here is a lovely rant that will cleanse you of all the above.
I'd really love to just say this, but like I said, I'm trying very hard to be diplomatic

www.thelesbianmafia.com/home/embracing-lady-brain-feminists-lgbt-liberals-are-turning-back-time-for-women-to-advance-a-transgender-agenda/

Does she have children? I think the issues around children and safeguarding peak many when you consider your own. Even if she doesn't she should consider the threat to lesbians. The conflating is racism with transphobia has always been a weak argument. Some trans you tubers say their suffering is the same as black slaves (Alok)

As a slight aside men who are transwomen an are still attracted to the same visual sexual stimuli post op as they are before (Ray Bradbury/Benjamin Boyce you tube interview). So whatever surgery they have they are the same 'on the inside'.

Sorry cross post - she's right about climate change but whilst the Uk government is focused on Brexit the trans ideology is coming through the back door.

You could refer her to recent legal movement in Canada, US and NZ. I assume she's aware of the questions around prisons and women's refuges and Mermaids and Stonewall.

I've had similar debate with old friends and I haven't succeeded in changing their minds, nor have they changed mine, so don't tie yourself in knots with it. It's a very divisive issue - at least she hasn't #nodebate'd you, even if her tone was condescending - she is unlikely to shift her position based on a few online articles.

Here’s an article from the Guardian about Gina Rippons work:-
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/books/2019/mar/02/the-gendered-brain-by-gina-rippon-review

Her research shows that brains are plastic - they mould according to the environment they find themselves in. She also shows that studies of personality traits/abilities find that there is no cluster of traits that women have and a separate cluster of traits that men have. There is no construct of ‘female gender identity’ or ‘male gender identity’. This makes perfect sense - if there was a ‘female gender identity’ it would mean that all women have the same personality and abilities which clearly they don’t. And if you ‘feel like a woman’ that would mean you could mindread and know what all women feel like inside. Clearly none of this makes sense.

The thing is, I don't actually struggle with the idea that there's some biology underpinning this. In fact, I would welcome that. I'd love it if young people presenting to GIDS could get an MRI to show that they actually had GID (which should be treated medically) rather than socially induced body disphoria (which should be treated with psychotherapy). I welcome a proper diagnostic test for this condition. The fact that none exists should be a pretty big clue that this research is, at best, tenuous and in its infancy. Take the first paper for example:

"Results revealed that regional gray matter variation in MTF transsexuals is more similar to the pattern found in men than in women. However, MTF transsexuals show a significantly larger volume of regional gray matter in the right putamen compared to men."

So they have some cerebral patterns more in common with men and some more in common with women? So what? All that proves is that there might be a neurological basis for their feelings. Does that mean they literally are women? Why does having more gray matter in the right putamen than man make you a woman? Especially when overall the gray matter variation is more male than female? Does your friend actually believe that every other mammal on the planet is sexually dimorphic with their sex class classified according to their genotype and reproductive function, but humans exist on a sex spectrum according to the quantity of gray matter they have in their right putamen? Is that really the stance they want to take?

I suspect the rest of those links will say something similar, that MtF brains have more in common with male brains than female brains, but are still different in a few ways to male brains. And that's fine, that in no way proves or even suggests that MtF trans people actually are female. Even if MtF transpeople had a brain that was significantly more similar in every single regard to a female brain than a male brain. Even if they were identical, in fact. They'd still be a male brain because they belong to a male person because we don't assign sex classes based on cerebral patterns. It matters not one jot to me why a person identifies as trans, not one jot. The aetiology, whilst interesting, is irrelevant to the question of whether they actually are the opposite sex.

I'd also point out that that study was done on people with "strong feelings of being the opposite sex and a belief that their sexual characteristics do not reflect their true gender". So, the gender dysphoria crowd then? The farthest most extreme end of the trans spectrum. And still the MRI found basically no significant cerebral variations. So now what do you think we'd find if we did MRI on the rest of the people under the trans umbrella, like transvestites, drags queens, and "feminine men". People who aren't severely gender disphoric. Do you think we'd find that they all had more gray matter they have in their right putamen than "cis" men as well? If it turns out that they don't do we eject them from the trans umbrella. Where exactly does this shifting of the biological goal posts end?

Or you could just send your friend this meme and then go make some new friends.

I don’t get how The Guardian can promote Fine and Rippon at the same time as they push the lady-brain bollocks with respect to transgender.

Either the brain is gendered or it isn’t; you can’t argue that male and female brains are the same but that a lady-brain can be born into the wrong body.

I saw an article recently critiquing the concept of the male brain. She argued that whilst there are differences (eg brain size, cortical thickness etc) that none differentiated men and women. Talking about the extreme male brain she equates with "extreme male height" - ie there is a difference in average but the ranges are similar. Sorry can't recall it and on phone just now.

Ooo here's a good thread on what TheSteveMilliband just said:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3544046-You-have-a-mans-height

Everyone has posted exactly what I'd post but regarding neuroscience it's definitely Gina Rippon you need, esp her book the Gendered Brain.

I can't tell if your links are any she's critiqued right now but she sets out an extremely good case for the fact that a gendered environment creates a 'gendered brain' and it starts st birth (or before with gender reveal parties) as even the language used to describe babies can be gendered. There are sex differences but not in terms of expression of behaviours and the brain is so plastic that learning new skills eg a new language can have a massive measurable impact on the brain no matter what your sex.

The first link up thread is probably the most useful next to her book.

Gender identity has historically been considered a social construct until the last 20 years as scientists have discovered biological markers for gender identity determined by various genes, hormones, brain structure, etc.

I'd like to see the research on that. Is that in any of the papers you've listed? If true, it means we can all find out our gender identity using blood tests and brain scans. And we'll know who's got a real lady brain and who hasn't. How did we miss this?

Also, how does any of this biological markers stuff fit with the gender fluid crowd? Does Philip/ Pippa Bunce magically grow more gray matter in his/her right putamen on the days that they're Pippa? Do agender people have no gray matter in their right putamen? Either gender is biologically fixed or it isn't! You'd have to be an actual fucking idiot to think this stuff makes sense.

Found it! If you are here La Scapiglata: your are FABULOUS

lascapigliata8.wordpress.com/2018/06/30/transactivists-war-on-reality-what-they-think-studies-show-vs-what-studies-actually-show/

Thanks everyone. I agree that these studies lack any useful ends, but I do find it all very interesting. So feel free to post any others.
Haven't studied statistics in over 25 years, so thanks for the help.

Gina Rippon also has some great videos on You Tube. Clear and accessible for those more audio/visual minded.

OhHolyJesus mentioned "As a slight aside men who are transwomen an are still attracted to the same visual sexual stimuli post op as they are before (Ray Bradbury/Benjamin Boyce you tube interview). So whatever surgery they have they are the same 'on the inside’.”

Hannah Mouncey was very clear on this point, she would absolutely agree - see from 4:23 in this video. The whole video is quite illuminating.
www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=324&v=P0XlP2Bbei8

Thanks Stella, that was quite enlightening. Thanks for sharing.

:) You're welcome :)

It's great when videos help clear up these complex scientific questions, and we can learn so much from just listening to trans people :)

I'd recommend watching some atheist channels which debate Christian science. Whatever your belief system, I think that's a really good introduction to things like logical fallacies, burden of proof, falsifiable claims etc. The YouTube channels "Logicked", and "The Atheist Experience" are a good place to start.

Some great links on here.

On another issue, if i were in your position, I would be very wary of your friend. If anyone tells you that a belief that you hold, seriously and conscientiously, is beneath you, that’s a warning sign. The issue is whether your belief is correct or not. ‘It’s beneath you’ is a passive aggressive form of bullying: a way of getting you to internalise a belief that you are beneath her. Which is manipulative and unpleasant.

( And incidentally, we will never be able to solve our environmental problems unless we can think straight, and empower women. )

When people show you who they really are, as I think your friend has, believe them.

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I've had a quick look for some of the papers you linked to. You should be able to find some of them as free downloads using google scholar.

This one: journals.aace.com/doi/abs/10.4158/EP14351.RA is available here as a pdf

Also in word format from the results page.

scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=author%3Asaraswat+author%3Aweinand&btnG=

Which paper(s) did your friend say showed that scientists have discovered biological markers for gender identity determined by various genes, hormones, brain structure, etc.? I'd rather not have to plough through all the ones you linked to to try to find it.