Not giving up on Let Toys Be Toys: an update

[MForstater]

Following on from this twitter.com/LetToysBeToys/status/1112454995000131584?s=19 I (along with some of the other LTBT co-founders) have messaged with some of the current team and spoken with one of them (all informally, unofficially etc… it is not a group with a leader or official spokespeople).

The campaign has always stayed clear of questions about how much observed differences between girls and boys are socialised or innate, and as far as i know has never previously commented on ‘trans children’.

I think this is right: LTBT does not need to argue the science, and question of how best to support the mental health of an individual child with severe gender dysphoria is one for doctors and medical research, working with parents and individual young people, not for politicised single-issue campaigning.

Instead it has focused on being a parent/consumer lead campaign with a singular, practical focus on reducing gendered marketing of toys.

LTBT started out (right here!) and is still are a scrappy upstart of a project. Decision making by consensus can be slow and cumbersome. Thats just the way it is. There is no "company", no interns, very little money. They are all volunteers, running the project on their phones in between the rest of their lives.

We can be sure that, like organisations that are much bigger and better resourced, they have come under intense pressure to toe the gender identity positive line, and like many organisations they were probably not paying enough attention.

It is going to take them some time to work out what to do next - and I think we have to be a bit patient, but not let this go.

I don’t know what LTBT are going to do. My personal opinion - and my advice to them was that they made the right call in staying out of this debate, but now that they have stumbled in they need to make their position (that they do not take a position) clear. I think they should come out with a clear set of statements on the things they are NOT taking a position on, and on the scope and mandate of the campaign which is based on things we DO know. Eg. We know that all children are born with a sex, and sexist stereotypes harm children of both sexes.

I also think they should revisit their recommendation of the Jamie book. LTBT calls out companies when their books and promotional materials reinforce sexist stereotypes to children. I think it is incumbent on LTBT, now that it finds itself in the same position to go back and consider whether the book fits their values and aims and if it doesn't remove it, apologise and say why. If there are mixed opinions in the group about whether this work of literature is one which deserves a recommendation perhaps they could instead post a pair of guest blogs with two contrasting external reviews.

I do think they can (and I hope they will) defend their position of robustly not taking a position on scientific and medical issues which are outside of their scope - and stick to the important message about reducing sexist marketing which puts children in ‘pink’ and ‘blue’ boxes.

This makes sense

Thanks for this. I was always a big supporter of LTBT, and I hope it can return to its neutral stance of fighting gender stereotypes being imposed on children.

Thank you for the update.

I share your hopes.

Wise words, sound advice and a model approach for helping businesses and others to get it right.

Is there any chance that you, OP, could do the same sort of 'steering' for the police, the NHS, the NSPCC etc etc and the Women's and Equality Department?

Top job in providing LTBT with some constructive recommendations.

I'm more concerned now I've read this, as it seems there is no team, no coherent agenda and no agreed statement of intent.

LTBT needs to get their act together and decide who they are, what they want to achieve, and how they intend to do that. They need some guidelines and boundaries.

BadPennyNoBiscuit - obviously i can't speak for them, but there is a team (its just they all have busy lives), and there is a coherent agenda I think - which is to challenge gendered marketing of toys to children.

I agree they need to set some more explicit guidelines and boundaries....I hope that the fact that they are taking their time means that they are doing that.

there is a coherent agenda I think - which is to challenge gendered marketing of toys to children

Let's hope they get that coherent agenda back up and running, as challenging 'gendered marketing of toys to children' isn't coherent if you also champion material that links children's choices of toys/clothes/behaviours with specific sex steroetypes and therefore defines those children as potentially trans'.

LTBT admins, let's hope you see the cognitive dissonance you've been pressured into experiencing right now, and let's hope you recognise it and find a way out of it.

Yes Pombear

Whenever I've had discussions with people who espouse the idea of "gender identity" they say that it has nothing to do with gender stereotypes.

Let Toys Be Toys is all about gender stereotypes, so it is not clear why champions of "gender identity" should want their agenda to be involved in this campaign at all?

Candidpeel exactly!

How many times do we see on this board examples of 'trans kids' stories about how the parents' just knew' because of the clothes their child gravitated towards, the toys their child played with? Again, and again.

It's in complete contrast to Let Toys be Toys and other campaigns such as Let Clothes be Clothes, which (I thought) were about recognising that both sexes should be able to embrace, enjoy, and play/wear stuff that they want to, and disregard the currently commercialised-into (and now shockingly woked-into) boxes of 'gender identity'.

Thanks for the update OP.

I know companies come under a lot of pressure from transactivists to publicly support their gender ideology.

They check who companies follow on Twitter, then tweet “Are you aware that you are following X, a “known transphobe??”

Anything less than an fulsome apology from the company + immediately un-following of “the transphobe” (modern word for “witch”), and the company is branded a transphobe.

I understand the pressure LTBT are under. That book was truly awful though - utterly sexist, so damaging in the message it sent to non conforming girls.

If LTBT have the courage to stand up, they will receive immense support.

Thanks for the update. Hopefully this will be a 'what doesn't kill you makes you stronger' experience for LTBT. The campaign really is important, it makes a difference in the real world.

Tbh unless they make a clear statement, I'm done - for me, the book review was totally at odds with their declared objective as an organisation. But appreciate the efforts you've gone to and good advice OP.

Thanks for the update. It must be incredibly hard for groups like LTBT to resist the agenda of others.

A different scenario, but I used to work for a charity who were regularly asked about a side issue to their main purpose. The side issue was a controversial one, with both donors and staff split on the right course of action.

The charity meanwhile wanted to remain committed to their original aims and to get on with the day job. To avoid being distracted and dragged into a controversial and potentially divisive issue, they issued a clear statement saying that they were not campaigning for (the side issue) but were committed to delivering the best (oringinal aim) possible.

Would something like that work?

I agree with this.

The charity meanwhile wanted to remain committed to their original aims and to get on with the day job. To avoid being distracted and dragged into a controversial and potentially divisive issue, they issued a clear statement saying that they were not campaigning for (the side issue) but were committed to delivering the best (original aim) possible.

Yes. This! I think this is a perfectly legitimate and defensible position for any campaigning organisation take (and it is the one that LTBT has taken in practice up to now).

It is noticeable looking at the 3,000 likes to that tweet how many of them come from anime avatars, furries, gamers etc... with a lot from America. ...these are not LTBT's constituency.

Yes, if they make a statement now it will bring down the internet wrath of those that have been love-bombing them for posting that book.

But in the long term what campaign success depends on is the ability to influence and mobilise UK parents who don't want gender stereotypes pushed onto kids.

Can someone give me the background to what’s happening? I love LTBT and follow them on Facebook.

This is what kicked if off:

twitter.com/LetToysBeToys/status/1112454995000131584?s=19

This is the subsequent discussion:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3548256-let-toys-be-toys-has-fallen

Mmm...

I have seen too many organisations get taken over from the insides by antifeminist arseholes. It looks like the same has happened to LTBT.

I'm too weary with disappointment to hold out hope they aren't just going down the toilet to hang out with the rest of the woke little shits.

Just fucking grow a pair all you wanky self-important nobber orgs.

You will not be able to help women and girls without attracting the wrath of those who hate women. Don't capitulate, remember why you are there, and stand up for yourselves ffs.

The charity meanwhile wanted to remain committed to their original aims and to get on with the day job. To avoid being distracted and dragged into a controversial and potentially divisive issue, they issued a clear statement saying that they were not campaigning for (the side issue) but were committed to delivering the best (original aim) possible.

but as you acknowledged in the OP it is too late for this! the book they promoted is extremely damaging. it is far more common than it should be for girls to be treated as slaves in the home whilst male family members do nothing. this is the oppression of gender in action - there is nothing innate about females that means they are suited to the role of domestic servant. how devastating that a children's story would tell the child that this hard life was the fault of their body not their family and a patriarchal society. how dangerous that this book would mislead a child to think that they could just identify out of their life situation (and by extension that all the female family members that don't identify as trans are accepting of their situations?)

This is even before one gets to the lesbophobia and sexual deception.

LTBT have made a mistake that necessitates a path forward. If they choose to pander to the loudest voices on twitter i don't see how we can do anything but discern that they have people working for them who hold some very regressive views. Anyone who follows (the lovely, reasonable, not yet un-woke) Jameela Jamil on twitter will see how hard it is to keep on the right side of these bullies. LTBT will end up tying themselves in knots as their core message is the exact opposite of trans activism.

I think if they reject the book and hold tight and continue to promote their core message they will get some shit but it will pass because they don't say anything unreasonable. they'd be hard to target for mass reporting and banning for example. and anyone actively disagreeing with what they say is shown up as adhering to regressive stereotypes.

stillathing

I agree kinda. I don't think its too late for LTBT to say that as a campaign it is outside of their scope to say anything about the best therapeutic treatment of children with gender dysphoria or any other mental health condition (and thus they have nothing to say about 'transkids').

I do think they have to say something about that book. Because they put it out there.

They don't have "people working for them". They are just a group of volunteers .... so I am hoping that if we give them time and support they will do what WeRiseUp said and realise.....

You will not be able to help women and girls without attracting the wrath of those who hate women. Don't capitulate, remember why you are there, and stand up for yourselves

Thanks for the background. I saw that bookncome up on my feed and ignored it but was confused at the time why they were promoting it. It says to me girls are weak domestic beings and boys are better.
It’s becomkng scary how gendered some family members are and how they are becoming almost militant that their girl likes pink and their boy likes blue etc.

Imagine how positive it would (could/should) have been if that book had instead been about GNC boys and girls and shown them as normal children living lives playing with whatever, dressing as whoever and dreaming of growing up to be whatever, alongside other GNC or gender confirming boys and girls, of all races, abilities, religions...

You know, kids being kids as kids are wont to do.

t is noticeable looking at the 3,000 likes to that tweet how many of them come from anime avatars, furries, gamers etc... with a lot from America. ...these are not LTBT's constituency.

Yes, if they make a statement now it will bring down the internet wrath of those that have been love-bombing them for posting that book.

But in the long term what campaign success depends on is the ability to influence and mobilise UK parents who don't want gender stereotypes pushed onto kids.

MForstater, it must be gutting to see that post being co-opted by many who, we know from their twitter behaviour, have no long-term allegiance to LTBT or desire to support its values.

'Love-bombing' is a great term for what seems to have happened. Animes, furries, US-based gamers, most I suspect are without kids of their own right now, are social-justice-warrioring all over the internet, without a thought about what LTBT really means.

If LTBT can focus on the long game, and who their core supporters and the children who will ultimately benefit from their message, that would be amazing.

Patience gives them space to work this through and I understand the tangle they've got themselves into.

If they can stick to their core aim: reducing sexist marketing which puts children in ‘pink’ and ‘blue’ boxes it won't appease those who need those boxes so they can jump in and out of them and declare themselves 'special' for it, but it'll keep them on track for helping the majority of parents and children to de-gender toys, and help children realise there are many ways to express themselves, regardless of the sex they are.

Let's hope LTBT are able to look at the long-game.

The book LTBT promoted was a celebration of the very worst sexist stereotypes. It promoted the idea that little girls are born to servitude and nobody can change or challenge this. Your only option as a girl is changing yourself into a boy. Then continue life in that sexist gender role instead. What a bleak and desperate message to send children.

And that is even before considering the future implications of introducing the concept of sex change to a vulnerable child.

I’ve followed LTBT from the start. I’ve shared and promoted it’s work to friends. I’ve used them to raise concerns to organisations and to try to challenge lazy gendered marketing. They were great.

I simply despaired at this latest direction. I do hope they listen to you OP and revaluate. Thank you for updating us. I no longer follow them but I’ll keep checking back in if you think they might re consider their values.

Thanks for the update OP. We know that lots of organisations end up 'rainbow washing' - mindlessly promoting TRA causes just because they think they it's woke and without considering the impact on women. Trouble is, LTBT doesn't have that excuse. It's explicitly dedicated to challenging sex stereotypes - or it was, right up to the point that it decided to promote a book that tells kids that girls can't do the same things, or even dress the same, as boys. That's not an oversight - it's a rejection of its entire raison d'être. It's like the World Wildlife Fund nipping out to club a few seals or Amnesty campaigning for longer jail sentences.

And they didn't need to do this. No doubt they have had pressure from TRAs but, as long as they remained neutral, they could get away with not taking a stance on the trans movement's sex stereotyping. Now they have totally blown it. They have alienated a huge swathe of their supporters and it will gain them nothing, as nobody who approves of this book is a true supporter of an organisation that opposes sex stereotypes. The acclaim from the furries & anime crew is just a celebration of capitulation. We all know that they will now want more.

I say this with a lot of sadness but I am not sure LTBT can recover from this . Its future now is being pushed to be more and more TRA inclusive, and therefore more and more accepting of sex stereotypes.