What things might be banned in the future? Lighthearted! Sort of...

[BlueFly42]

I saw a couple of posts on social media that got me thinking.

1. On Twitter, in relation to the SH court document, someone tried to argue that misgendering should never be illegal because people make mistakes, thought police, etc. This was deemed not a reasonable argument with the analogy of dangerous driving given (as in, misgendering causes harm and death through dysphoria so must be punishable even if accidental).

1. On reddit I saw a discussion about women where a transwoman was saying her dysphoria was triggered seeing women out and about. To be fair, the post didn't get that much support.

Anyway, like I said, it got me thinking about what other dysphoria inducing things might be banned in our brave new world. Perhaps the following set of rules might be appropriate, as a starting point:

• Women must cover their bodies and faces when leaving the home
• Menstruating women must be segregated and blocked from participating in normal life
• Pre pubescent girls breasts should be mutilated to prevent development
• We could consider a system whereby all women must have a male "guardian" to ensure that they're staying in line

I then felt not so lighthearted as I realised that these things already happen to women in our world.

I know that this is stupid and hypothetical scare mongering. I don't believe it could happen in the UK. But I didn't belive thought crime would ever be a thing in the UK either and remember telling my DH he was overreacting about roll backs of freedoms because "the UK isn't like that"... We are ignorant if we belive we are inherently "better than" the societies that practice the above.

What other things can we think of to create our dysphoria free utopia?

Women who refuse to accept the correct gender identity will be barred from jobs in science, management and political?

I was told on Twitter that by asserting biological reality I was deliberately triggering someone's gender dysphoria.

Stating biological facts is already contentious.

Mumsnet.

Not joking.

This is where government proposals on social media regulation are headed.

No contraception or abortion rights.
Bad outcomes for womens diseases, and maternal death rates will be as high as they are in the USA.

Two things I spotted in the news yesterday:

1. Texas considering death penalty for women who have abortions
2. Indian women have hysterectomies so they can secure employment

www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/04/10/texas-bill-would-make-it-possible-put-women-death-having-abortions/

www.thehindubusinessline.com/economy/agri-business/why-half-the-women-in-maharashtras-beed-district-have-no-wombs/article26773974.ece

All women will be required by law to carry at least one child for a gay or trans couple. Or maybe there will be a 2 child per household limit imposed with all subsequent children being removed for redistribution, like a children robin hood tax.

There's one bit from the handmaid's tale that really stuck with me, where Offred is saying how the scariest bit was how quickly everyone got used to that way of life as normal and acceptable.

That's fucking terrifying howonearthdidwegethere In the past I've always just said "american's are crazy, thank god I don't live there". But more and more of their shit is making it's way to the UK. Women's rights are under threat on an absolutely unprecedented scale.

Oh yeh, but women aren't oppressed by their biology, nope, nothing to do with that.

Heya!

I've got a good friend who's been through a lot of this, so I figured maybe hearing how someone on the other side feels might help?

1. People who want to make misgendering illegal generally want to ban it in the same way as it's banned on MN. They want to make aggressive misgendering (where the intention is to hurt someone illegal). Accidental stuff has never been the intention.

1. Yeah, my friend's mentioned getting worse dysphoria in the summer, because women dress more effeminately then. The problem there isn't how women are dressing, it's the dysphoria - I think everyone's in agreement there. The main solution to this one seems a mix of letting her transition so she can pass as female more comfortably, and also generally make the world one where she's be less likely to suffer a transphobic attack if she did go about in a summery skirt.

But yeah, I appreciate change is scary, but I've never known a trans person who wants such catastrophic things. The trans men and women I know are probably some of the most femenist people I've ever met, so those things you listed would probably make them vomit just to think about 😅

Blimey, no OP, this isn’t lighthearted. All too imaginable, and as stated, some of it already happens to a degree somewhere in the world. I personally think it is entirely possible that using the term ‘sex work’ as opposed to prostitution, opens the door to it one day being an employment ‘choice’ imposed upon women, by the authorities, if they wish to claim certain benefits that depend upon a working status where they find other employment closed to them. After all, you can do it in your own home, right? So the right to body autonomy is, de facto, banned.

I don't misgender by accident.
I use the correct pronouns for sex deliberately because sex matters and the right not to be compelled to lie matters.
There's zero malice in my decision.

But I will continue to prioritise my right to acknowledge sex, over anyone's desire to threaten me with punishment for not complying and pretending.

I hope your feminist trans friends have thought about what should happen to someone like me.
I won't pretend, won't use female pronouns for males or vice versa. Frankly I think it's wrong of anyone to ask another person to lie or pretend, let alone threaten them with the law if they won't.

So, I'm not impressed with the argument "oh we won't punish people who make a genuine mistake tho. Just people who deliberately refuse to comply/submit/lie/be subjugated. Them. Them we'll punish."

EmilyJW I hope your friends are standing up for women to believe in science and to not be gaslighted into having to having to say things that they know aren't true.
As for accidental misgendering not being the target - who gets to say when it is accidental? Why should people who believe in science be made to speak in a way that is counter to their deeply held beliefs?
'Change is scary' - we are not concerned because these attempts to reduce freedom of speech and expression are 'new' to us, but because they are forced and wrong.
We are never going to agree to it.

You're right of course EmilyJW, real life trans people are just normal people who have normal ideas about this stuff and are sensible and thoughtful (well, as much as any other human being). But a lot of the TRAs on Twitter and Tumblr are, to be perfectly frank, stark raving mad. And I'm afraid to say that right now they're the ones driving the bus. So if you know some sensible thoughtful transpeople please encourage them to start speaking out against the batshittery, because we want them to be safe and happy and able to be themselves. We are and always will be their allies. But the aggressive twitter TRAs are en route to creating a backlash that will harm RL transpeople and a lot of LGB people too. It'll get to the point where people will be willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater to stop the hardcore TRAs, and no one wants that.

Hello, Emily

It is one thing to use someone's preferred pronouns out of politeness (which I do with the trans people in my life) but making it illegal to misgender someone is compelling other people to adhere to someone else's beliefs. I don't believe human beings can change sex. It would be like insisting that your atheist friend prays when they attend church with you.

I completely agree that your friend should be able to live a full life without threat of discrimination, harassment or violence on grounds of their trans status. It may hearten you to know that transgender status is a protected characteristic under hate crime legislation. Although sex is not, so criminal offences motivated by misogyny are not hate crimes.

Ooer, there's some strong language in here.

I don't want to get into the whole "believe in science" thing because while that is important to discuss, it feels a lil' off topic, and I'm sure much smarter people than me have discussed it much better somewhere else. tl;dr MN rules seem to be pretty clear that treating people with the pronouns they identify with is a basic respectful thing to be done.

I think by far the easiest comparison for misgendering is using racial slurs. The most infamous racial slur, that N one, is often used to hurt and dehumanise people, and it's often used in ways that aren't harmful. I think it's super clear to any of us what the difference is. Pronouns are similar.

I think when it comes down to it, this is where the disagreement we're having is. You want to feel like you can be safe to accidentally misgender someone, correct? I totally get that. I've accidentally misgendered people. I've called butch woman he by accident. But I think it was extremely clear to her it was an accident. It was clear I didn't do it to cause her pain. It's... from my experience, always been very black and white clear when someone is doing is by accident and when someone is doing it to hurt.

Appreciate the info, howonearthdidwegethere. Seems kinda ridic that sex isn't protected, I didn't know that. Do you know if there's any campaigns around to change that you'd recommend? (dw if not, I can google too)

Hey ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving! I totally get what you're saying. While I've not really not run into too many "loony" trans people, what you're saying has parallels with things I've seen in the past.

Hell, you might have noticed my account's new. I just came to MN because it's very easy as someone not here, to get the feeling MN is full of "stark raving mad" transphobes. But I'm here now because it's never so simple. Everyone here's human. Just having too many degrees of separation from people means you only see the weird stuff.

Twitter's actually awful for this. You follow people who end up selectively retweeting the very worst people just to dunk on them.

Please, I've seen the "yeah there's one or two good people but the people driving the bus are mad" logic used again and again, by Gamergaters about women in games back when that was a thing, by homophobes back in the early 2010s... You said it yourself, it's never that simple. As someone "riding the bus", I don't think the people driving it are mad.

Emily - you didn't answer my points.
Who judges what is accidental?
I find it respectful if we allow others to believe what they want. Your friends can refer to themselves by incorrect pronouns if they like. Mumsnet does not force us to do this either. I normally just use the person's name.
I don't see how the belief that people can't change sex is anything like racism. At all.

Using correct pronouns for a person's sex is in no way comparable to using racial slurs.

'Change is scary'

This particular change is deeply, deeply harmful to women and girls. As discussed at length all over these boards.

'Change is scary,'. That's some patronising nonsense right there.

Is it scary because we are all old ladies who don't understand the modern world? How fabulous to be so young that you think you know it all. I do remember being like that.

women dress more effeminately

Emily, you might want to check the definition of effeminate.

I've called butch woman he by accident. But I think it was extremely clear to her it was an accident. It was clear I didn't do it to cause her pain.

I don’t think I’ve ever met a butch woman who’d get hurtyfeelz over ‘misgendering’, tbh.

Emily didn't answer my points either.
Presumably I should be punished for calling a man 'he' if he demands I call him she and I refuse to comply.

Fwiw Emily, MNHQ don't compel any of us to use incorrect pronouns. Which you would call correctly gendering I suppose.

We pay a price to post here of refraining from using correct, sex based pronouns. That is all. We contort language into 'theys' and use names in place of pronouns.

But that's mumsnet. Not the law of the land.

No man will make me call him she. It's not a 'kindness' to either of us.
It's a display of dominance and submission.

Emily will be busy with A Level revision, Barracker.