Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Response to my woman’s aid letter

13 replies

Theladylady · 09/04/2019 19:25

Dear ,

Thank you for your email and we understand your concern.

With the government proposing to consult on and review the Gender Recognition Act, like many other organisations, we are taking the opportunity to review our internal policies. We are beginning this work now, and will talk to our member organisations and survivors as part of the process. Any decisions on our internal policy will be taken once this review is completed.

Women’s Aid is a federation, and as such it is not in our power to set the policies of the expert, independent, organisations that form our membership and run direct services for survivors. What we will do is use the outcome of the review to offer guidance to our membership on best practice.

Your support is very important to us and we will take your comments on board when reviewing our policies.

Best wishes,
Women's Aid

OP posts:
Theladylady · 09/04/2019 19:26

So basically they are acting as the new trans fever will take hold in a legal way

OP posts:
Erythronium · 09/04/2019 19:47

I imagine you made substantive points which they completely failed to address. Could you post your letter to them as well, just for clarity?

Is the Women's Aid Federation taking part in the new GRA consultation? They don't make it clear at all.

Theladylady · 09/04/2019 19:49

copied off a lady from here

Dear Madam/Sir,

I have recently learned that you are allowing men who identify as women to access your women only hostels, even if these men are convicted perpetrators of domestic abuse. The fact that you have seemingly not considered the impact of this on vulnerable women is frankly astonishing. The danger these men pose to women is self evident, and I am disgusted that an organisation that claims to support the most vulnerable in our society is complicit in putting yet more barriers in place against women seeking safety and support.

I would like to take this opportunity to remind of the following relevant legislation:

  1. Regarding provisions for transpeople, only gender reassignment is legally recognised as a protected characteristic. Neither "gender" not "gender identity" are recognised.
  1. The Equality Act 2010 states that:

"A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex."

This does not mean that a person is able to self identify as the opposite sex, and expect to be immediately treated as such. The Gender Recognition Act is very clear than in order to be considered "undergoing" or "proposing to undergo" gender reassignment, and thus be eligible for a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC), the person must meet all of the following criteria:

(a) has or has had gender dysphoria.
(b) has lived in the acquired gender throughout the period of two years ending with the date on which the application is made.
(c) intends to continue to live in the acquired gender until death.

This means that by law a man who does not meet these requirements should be treated as a man for the purposes of providing sex segregated services (see below).

  1. The Equality Act 2010 makes it clear in Schedule 3, part 7, paragraph 26, that:

"A provider can deliver separate services for men and women where providing a combined service would not be as effective. A provider can deliver separate services for men and women in different ways or to a different extent where providing a combined service would not be as effective and it would not be reasonably practicable to provide the service otherwise than as a separate service provided differently for each sex. In each case such provision has to be justified."

It also says that single sex services are permitted (amongst other reasons) if:

"they may be used by more than one person and a woman might object to the presence of a man (or vice versa)"

Clearly permitting men, especially men with a history of violence towards women, into a women's only hostel renders the service less effective. Clearly women who are vulnerable and likely to have suffered trauma at the hands of men will object to the inclusion of men in your services, even if (as many won't) they do not feel empowered to voice this objection.

The act even gives hostels for women facing homelessness as a specific example of when this exception should be applied:

"It would not be unlawful for a charity to set up separate hostels, one for homeless men and one for homeless women, where the hostels provide the same level of service to men and women because the level of need is the same but a unisex hostel would not be as effective."

Clearly the provision of sex segregated spaces in this case is fully justified.

To conclude, a man who self-declares himself to be a woman, but who cannot provide evidence of a GRC or who does not meet the eligibility criteria for an application for a GRC, must by law be considered a man and not a woman. Admission of such individuals to single sex service provisions, such as hostels for women facing homelessness, is in contradiction with the Equality Act and a violation of the rights of women to be afforded special protections on the basis of their sex.

I would be grateful if you could respond to this email detailing how you propose to address this situation in a manner which prioritises the safety of vulnerable women, over men who claim to be women.

Yours faithfully,

OP posts:
ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving · 09/04/2019 19:55

I got the same reply (and also sent the same letter haha). My letter to St Mungo got a similarly shit response, with them saying that all clients are thoroughly risk assessed (so... the domestic abuser was risk assessed?), that the mail had got the story wrong, and that despite the concerns "raised on mumsnet" (as if these concerns are specific to here) they are proud to be a Stonewall "top trans" employer. So yay for women I guess Hmm

Erythronium · 09/04/2019 19:58

Good letter. They also contradict themselves:

"Women’s Aid is a federation, and as such it is not in our power to set the policies of the expert, independent, organisations that form our membership and run direct services for survivors."

"Your support is very important to us and we will take your comments on board when reviewing our policies."

I never expected to see the day when Women's Aid stopped being a friend and supporter to women.

PreseaCombatir · 09/04/2019 19:58

So they’re basically saying ‘well, the law might change, therefore we are not going to tell you why we’re not complying with the actual law’

Theladylady · 09/04/2019 20:15

To be honest I more worried about schools doing this

OP posts:
CottonDuvet · 09/04/2019 20:19

Do they not realise that, for some (not all!) trans women, doing something like being admitted to a women's shelter is driven by the need, the craving, for validation?

Spuddor · 09/04/2019 20:26

Considering the reason that women’s aid was originally set up, to protect these women, from said abusers, I am gobsmacked.

kendoddsdadsdogsdead18 · 09/04/2019 20:34

Where they specific about what the story in the mail got wrong?

kendoddsdadsdogsdead18 · 09/04/2019 20:35

Jeez. Were not where!!

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving · 09/04/2019 22:25

Reply from St Mungos:

"Thank you for getting in touch with us about the recent article in the Mail On Sunday regarding our women’s and LGBTQ+ services. We are aware of the concerns raised on MumsNet and are responding to those who have contacted us directly with the following information.

We believe there are errors in the story as published. I hope you understand that we would not be more specific publically about these because they would relate to an individual person’s situation.

We have a duty to safeguard our clients from violence and abuse. All St Mungo’s clients are subject to assessment of risk to themselves and others when they are referred to our services and on an ongoing basis during their stay.

We gave the following statement to the Mail On Sunday:

“We are sure readers will understand that we do not comment on individual client
circumstances. Safety is fundamental to our organisation, we have safeguarding policies and procedures in place to ensure clients, staff and volunteers are safe and respected, and we take action in line with those policies as necessary.
“Access to our services for trans people is determined by the same referral and assessment processes we use with all clients. Trans women are welcome in our women-only services and spaces, in accordance with the law and our values as a charity.
“St Mungo’s is a trans inclusive organisation recognised by Stonewall as a top trans employer.”

If you have any questions or would like to discuss this in more detail, please do not hesitate to contact us."

From the Deputy Director of Strategy and Policy

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving · 09/04/2019 22:27

The person who emailed me had their pronouns included in their email signature so that gave me a good idea of what the reply might be Hmm.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Swipe left for the next trending thread