Unreported rapes and low conviction rates in Nordic countries

[nettie434]

Interview on Woman’s Hour now with researcher pointing out that conviction rates for rape are low in Nordic countries and that there are many unreported rapes. Did think things would be better there but was clearly naive:

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0003rlk

It’s the first item when it comes up on sounds or listen again.

I understand convictions for rape is more likely if the perpetrator is an immigrant. ( or any other crime)

It reflects racism ..it is.easier to get a conviction , the victim is more likely to be believed , which makes it more likely to get reported in the first place . Very awful all round.

Only recently Finland changed its law to Sex Without Consent Is Rape. It sounds unbelievable that this law is a new one.

It took the rape of a 10 year old by a 20 year old man (and his joke of a sentence) to get a petition going to reform the law.

The arrival of asylum seekers/refugees (mostly very damaged young men, as we are aware) has brought with it an undeniable problem of increased sexual assaults on women and children. They have been naive, the Nordic law makers and politicians, in assuming all men see women as equal (which tends to be the mentality in Nordic societies).
Statistics speak for themselves. Gang raping and grooming of children is on the up. And it’s not Finnish men committing these crimes.

I don't think they are "damaged young men" in the sense of being psychologically disturbed. They simply come from cultures where women are not able to move freely in the world and are not people in their own right, but the property of men. And before I get called a racist, I have experience of being a young woman travelling in MENA countries and also travelling and living in European cities with large second and third generation MENA populations, where the cultural problems remain - for all women, including women in the men's own community. It's tiptoed around and swept under the carpet because as I said, women aren't important.

I think they need to educate the men. Do they have a full understanding of what rape is? What consent is? The effects it would have on someone? I know very well there will always be evil people who actively want to rape. Maybe they're untreatable (some). But I also believe there is a massive subset who have shit and hazy views of what consent is and entitlement regarding women. And does that lead to rape? Absolutely.

So much focus is on the wrong end in my opinion and we see this in the UK - programmes to prevent girls becoming victims of CSE. Yes, it may prevent those specific girls from becoming victims of CSE (arguably) but that simply means there will be other, maybe more vulnerable victims. Those that the programme didn't pick up or who were unable to complete it. And the CSE perpetrators carry on perpetrating.

If this was a sickness, we wouldn't be (properly) treating the root cause. And without treating the root cause, a sickness carries on unabated.

I have always thought this.

What’s tragic is that they do educate men. They printed out leaflets and posters showing asylum seekers and refugees how to treat women in their culture. Basically, “If a woman smiles at you and/or is wearing a skirt, this doesn’t mean rape her.” How sad that any man needs to be told this. How dangerous that it hasn’t gotten through.

I feel badly here because I don’t want to tar male asylum seekers with the same brush. DH is a GP and does see this ‘woman as chattel’ infrequently among certain cultures.

A leaflet doesn’t cut the mustard really.

If this was a sickness, we wouldn't be (properly) treating the root cause. And without treating the root cause, a sickness carries on unabated.

If it were any other crime, regardless of ethnicity of perpetrator, politicians would be running around talking about harshly deterrent mandatory sentences (like they are about knife crime currently) rather than addressing the root causes. But because it's women, nobody gives a shit.

the first poster's referenced a peculiar fascist website

Sorry that was me!

Sorry I really didn't know it was a wrongun site it was just the first one in the Google list when I searched
I think the BBC reported the same?

I'll try again but I think maybe the point is lost now anyway, just that I think some sexual crimes are under reported in case the victim gets accused of "being a racist"... And I get reminded of Rotherham etc and the problems we have here of certain groups you're not allowed to mention committing a lot of rape and sex crime.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45269764

I don't know where I stand on harshly deterrent mandatory sentences.

Do they prevent rapes from occurring? If so, I'd be all for it.

The reason I believe in addressing the root cause is that for me the very most important thing is prevention. And to prevent, you address the reason it's happening.

As in, preventing attacks from occurring in the first place. The evidence is mixed... if harsh mandatory sentences definitely deterred people from offending, I'd be all for it. As it stands, I'm not sure. Obviously I do believe there should be extremely harsh consequences for those that perpetrate sexual offenses, but ONLY if it reduces the risk of reoffending.

What if the sentences increased the chance of reoffending? Where would you stand then? I'm curious.

Nordic countries sometimes seem progressive on sex equality but a lot of it is actually Brocialism in disguise.

I don't know where I stand on harshly deterrent mandatory sentences.

I don't agree with them. Just saying that if these were crimes with any other victims than women, this would be the most common solution proposed by politicians. Like it always is. Unless the victims are women.

I dont know about the rape numbers but generally speaking gender based violence is lower in Denmark. I did the maths after finding statistics. 1% of danish women experience dv in any given year. Obviously that is 1% too many but in the Uk the same figure is 6-10% (i tjink, happy to be corrected). The culture is less confrontational in general and respect for privacy is valued. So if you go out alone people just wont strike up a conversation with you. At first I thought this was unfriendly but now I really appreciate going about my business in peace and quiet.

The petition asking for a public inquiry into grooming gangs in the UK has now reached 8676 signed. At 10,000 the government will be asked to give a written response. Here is the link: petiton.parliament.uk/petitions/327566

Legislation in the says a child under 16 cannot give consent so automatically should be treated as rape.

Just tried the link not working. OK, petition.parilament.uk/petitions/327566 If the link does not work type "public inquiry petition grooming gangs" and the parliamentary petitions website will come up. Remember to click on the link they send to your email address to confirm your support. Thanks

Thanks George, have signed

@RuffleCrow

Nordic countries sometimes seem progressive on sex equality but a lot of it is actually Brocialism in disguise.

Agree. Same for their female workforce. The generous parental leave allowance in Nordic countries has made employing women unattractive to the private sector as, until recently, it was overwhelmingly women who took parental leave, even though it was theoretically open to men too. This is belatedly being addressed by removing some of the allowance if the father does not take it, but it will take decades to address the paucity of women in the private sector. And, even where they are in the private sector, they tend not to be in leadership/decision-making positions (more info about this here).

So private sector companies, including Tech, are even more male dominated than in other countries, including those that are a lot less progressive on paper.

@redexpat

I dont know about the rape numbers but generally speaking gender based violence is lower in Denmark. I did the maths after finding statistics. 1% of danish women experience dv in any given year. Obviously that is 1% too many but in the Uk the same figure is 6-10% (i tjink, happy to be corrected). The culture is less confrontational in general and respect for privacy is valued. So if you go out alone people just wont strike up a conversation with you. At first I thought this was unfriendly but now I really appreciate going about my business in peace and quiet.

Given the high alcoholism rates in Nordic countries, and the strong link between DV and alcohol, I would suspect there is massive under-reporting. Respect for privacy isn't a good thing if it means turning a blind eye to your NDN's bruises.

Foreign-born men (starting with other Scandinavians) are more likely to be convicted of crimes in Sweden. But convicted is the key word here. Police and rest of criminal justice system more able to recognize them as doing bad stuff. For rape in particular conviction rate is so low that impossible to say that background of those few actually convicted extrapolates to those committing crime.

@pachyderm

I don't think they are "damaged young men" in the sense of being psychologically disturbed. They simply come from cultures where women are not able to move freely in the world and are not people in their own right, but the property of men. And before I get called a racist, I have experience of being a young woman travelling in MENA countries and also travelling and living in European cities with large second and third generation MENA populations, where the cultural problems remain - for all women, including women in the men's own community. It's tiptoed around and swept under the carpet because as I said, women aren't important.

This.

@Shinesweetfreedom

Quick someone pull the racist card out.Shut the conversation down fast.

And this.

It refers to ECHR standards of justice in rape law which British women will be losing after the brexit crash out in a few days time.

The European Court of Human Rights is an institution of the Council of Europe, not the EU.

Winston Churchill was the first statesman who publicly suggested the creation of such a pan-European body, first in 1943, then again in 1946 and when it was finally founded in 1949, the UK was one of the ten founding nations. Today the Council of Europe has 47 member states, and its best known body by far is the European Court of Human Rights. Which was set up to enforce the European Convention on Human Rights, first drafted in 1950 by the CoE's founding members. David Maxwell-Fyfe, a British MP, lawyer and most importantly prosecutor at the Nuremberg Trials led and guided this process.

The UK ratified the Convention in 1951 and it came into force in September 1953.

If the UK Government wants to secede from the European Convention on Human rights it will have to leave the Council of Europe. That has not been suggested to date.

Oh I get really annoyed when trying to discuss rape that we have to focus on "other men".
op was pointing out that even countries,with a good track record for women's equality have problems prosecuting rape. The ethnicity of perpetrators isn't relevant to that.
In fact, based on the BBC article, it could be argued that its easier to prosecute non-white, foreign rapists, for some reason