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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Caitlin Moran in yesterday's Times magazine

76 replies

WhenIsTheEasyBit · 31/03/2019 11:50

Sorry, can't link, but she addressed the Parkfields School row and in her usual, brilliant way dismantled any arguments against teaching children about same sex relationships or bisexuality.

I completely agreed with every word. Except, that throughout she referred to LGBT. Her argument and all her examples demonstrated that children aren't taught to be L, G or B. But there in the abbreviation about education was that T again, which a poster on these boards recently described as parasitically attached to LGB. I am not for one moment wanting to describe people who are T as parasites, but the activism movement has attached itself to a wholly different cause and Moran's article really brought this home to me, because it does seem, from the massive rise in cases, the clustering of spikes, that identifying as T can be taught or at least significantly externally influenced.

Just when I think that sense is prevailing and we're hitting peak-trans, something like Parkfields comes along and is labelled as being about LGBT: bingo, people like the deputy head of Ofsted and multiple slebs speak in support of teaching about "LGBT relationships" and it feels like a massive step back and more potential allies lost.

OP posts:
AdultHuman · 31/03/2019 13:55

That's you right to say that and think that about me and others, I don't have to take on any of what you say. I am entitled to boundaries.

SalmonFishing · 31/03/2019 13:57

In what way are your boundaries not being respected exactly?

Kennehora · 31/03/2019 13:58

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SalmonFishing · 31/03/2019 14:00

i think it is really unhelpful for the feminist cause for these sort of offensive homophobic opinions to be lumped in with the very important fight to protect women's and children's rights

Some people clearly using the issues surrounding the trans debate as an excuse to vocalise their homophobia.

Kennehora · 31/03/2019 14:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MenuPlant · 31/03/2019 14:03

Agree re homophobic commentary.

Not sure why my PP was deleted though.

I wonder if it was for stating that trans ideology states that sexed bodies are irrelevant and it's all about internal gender ID. And that being same sex attracted is therefore bigoted.

Surely not, as this is mainstream trans approach.

AdultHuman · 31/03/2019 14:05

I am sorry you misunderstand me and that I caused you upset expressing my opinions.

I don't take responsibility for what you accuse me of.

I will cease posting on this thread as I wish you a happily life and don't want to cause you any more distress.

Kennehora · 31/03/2019 14:10

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WhenIsTheEasyBit · 31/03/2019 14:10

And Salmon, there is the problem/ genius of LGBT. Well meaning teachers and other influencers see the outpouring either of support (quite possibly unaware of the T implications) or of outrage (actual or perceived homophobia) and the funding from Government and quasi-government bodies for outfits like Mermaids and Allsorts, and the drag queens in libraries and the pink to blue spectrum at police training, and so, by stealth and in plain sight, progressive developments get subverted. Suddenly questioning gender stereotypes and TWAW and the dismantling of normal safeguarding and parental consent arrangements becomes a right wing, fundamentalist position.

OP posts:
SalmonFishing · 31/03/2019 14:10

Funny how it's always the self described 'prudes' who are always the most pruriently obsessed with luridly imagining what other people get up to in bed

ALWAYS.

I'm sure loads of gay couples have the same pleasantly vanilla sex lives as many of their hetersosexual peers. The idea that they're all heading off to S&M dungeons of an evening would be amusing if it weren't couched in a wider homophobic viewpoint.

TowelNumber42 · 31/03/2019 14:18

I was interested this week to discover that a group for teenagers near me has chosen to refer to itself a "gay alliance" instead of LGBT anything. They didn't use those letters anywhere. All driven by the children themselves. There is hope. Like "transphobic", it seems "LGBTQ+" is stopping meaning anything useful so people are stopping using it.

JessicaWakefieldSVH · 31/03/2019 14:25

I don’t think children need to ‘learn’ about any kind of relationships in primary school. Young children can learn about different couples, hetero and same sex, as part of experiencing life outside of school- or from seeing parents of classmates etc. What we were taught at school, when in secondary, was the biological stuff like Male, female, reproduction etc I’m really not convinced that we need to teach children in an educational institution, about different relationships, lifestyles or religion. I had very homophobic parents, but I experienced and learnt about homosexuality by knowing people, extended family, friends etc from ‘life’

Kennehora · 31/03/2019 14:28

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TowelNumber42 · 31/03/2019 14:30

I agree. I reckon the best approach is just to not teach little children that homosexuality is wrong (at my school I was taught it was unnatural, sinful and, at best, to be mocked). Fixing that goes most of the way to making it normal to little children even if they don't see many gay relationships day to day.

JessicaWakefieldSVH · 31/03/2019 14:32

AdultHuman

Your posts indicate that underneath what you probably see as tolerance, is actually an unpleasant and homophobic view. You’ve actually connected certain sexual practices to homosexuality and also described them as a ‘fetish’. This isn’t about you being a prude or not wanting to watch sex on telly, I don’t like it either. You’ve connected gay relationships to certain sexual things and that somehow people talking about being gay is forcing you to talk about certain sex practices. You’re not being prudish there, you’re being stupid, ignorant, and homophobic. FYI, primarily due to porn, today’s young hetero men are obsessed with anal, so don’t go putting that on gay men.

greenpop21 · 31/03/2019 14:35

I think children just accept what they see around them.My DD was at school with a boy that had 2 mummies. She didn't bat an eyelid. I wasn't aware and went to correct her, only for her to tell me(aged7) "Some people have 2 mummies instead." very proud of her.

greenpop21 · 31/03/2019 14:38

Having had a catholic education, I was never told same sex relationships were wrong, they just weren't mentioned. I still managed to grow up understanding that there are different relationships other than straight ones. I agree with relationship education and that is all that school is doing. There is no mention of sex to 4 year old.

cellibabies · 31/03/2019 14:43

I don't have an irrational fear, I would appreciate my boundaries respected.

@AdultHuman I know you've said you're leaving the thread but I'm curious to know what your boundaries are?

E.g. in the context of a PSHE lesson/learning about the world around them, if children are simply told that some families have two mummies or two daddies - would that be a 'boundary' for you?

You say you're prudish and don't like to see kissing on TV etc; fine. But are you equally uncomfortable with heterosexual and homosexual kissing scenes for example? If so then a) I'm not sure how society can really do much about respecting your boundaries but you're welcome to look away if you see anyone publicly kissing b) it doesn't explain you conflating knowledge of specifically gay relationships (ie they exist and are normal) with loss of 'innocence'. I hate the pornified aspects of our culture so maybe I'm a prude too, but that has nothing to do with gay/straight.

User10fuckingmillion · 31/03/2019 14:55

I think it’s good that they’re teaching about homosexuality at school. The first time I heard the word gay it was a slur, and I remember being quite taken aback by my teacher talking about her sister being bisexual in year 7 (this would have been in 2011, not 1963 or anything!). I also agree that teaching children that they might have been ‘born in the wrong body’ at an age when they are particularly impressionable sets a dangerous precedent.

JessicaWakefieldSVH · 31/03/2019 14:59

The problem is, you can’t now teach the LGB without the T.

MenuPlant · 31/03/2019 15:04

Equally you can't teach the LGB with the T as they logically disagree with each other.

If you believe T (sex is irrelevant, gender is all, bodies are irrelevant) then you can't believe in the LG or B are they are related to sexual attraction and sexed bodies.

KatvonHostileExtremist · 31/03/2019 15:19

I think the draft guidence is very very good. Age appropriate, sensitive, bringing up a huge variety of really important issues for children and young people.

The only parts I think I'd be remotely concerned about is where it says to teach the law on gender identity. This is a hugely confused area. Is the law how the GC law professors set out in that letter, or is it the Stonewall spin?
I can see teachers teaching:
Some people are born with female brains in a male body. If someone says they are female, they are and should be treated in all ways as a woman.

Which of cause makes a mockery of sex as a protected characteristic.

Kids will come out with a mishmash of terrible science and regressive sexual stereotypes. Which is exactly what other parts of the curriculum are seeking to stop! Sex stereotypes are to be taught as harmful.

I would also be concerned about external agencies being encouraged into schools. Let's leave it to the experts..... stonewall, mermaids, allsorts. Exactly what they deliver regarding gender identity needs to be scrutinised so it doesn't go against the law on the protected characteristic of sex.

I think overall the new curriculum will be a helpful tool in fostering respect actually. I just think we need more guidence on teaching gender identity, so that the law is actually followed.

Self I.D is not law.

Ali1cedowntherabbithole · 31/03/2019 15:24

I was interested this week to discover that a group for teenagers near me has chosen to refer to itself a "gay alliance" instead of LGBT anything.

I can see this catching on.

JessicaWakefieldSVH · 31/03/2019 15:29

MenuPlant

I agree with your thinking, but the T has already attached itself.

slipperywhensparticus · 31/03/2019 15:30

I do not think trans needs to be taught in primary school they are too young to get the concept even high school children struggle hell even adults struggle with this concept

Most children in primary school know about lesbian and gay couples without being taught its everywhere these days my daughter is a lesbian her primary aged brothers dont bat an eye about it

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