Disgusted with myself that I am having this thought

[sandpitsausage]

I was raised by an OG 60s feminist mum, who tried to shield me from gender crap as much as possible. I know an alarming number of (happy) grown up women think this about themselves as kids, but if I was a kid now I would probably be labelled as a “boy” due to my hobbies, interests and self expression. I am now, of course, a very happy-in-my-own-skin woman.
I am trying to do the same for my 3 kids. I really try to keep stuff gender neutral, because you know, gender is oppressive shite for both girls and for boys. My son (3) loves pink and sometimes tells me he is a (actually, the only) female character from his favourite tv show (he also loves a lot of typically ”boys stuff” too).
What has just stuck me is that, he could be labelled as trans by his school for things like liking pink or saying “I’m a lady”. I mean, I doubt it would be just this. But if I constantly hide from my kids the seemingly now widely accepted view that pink and lipstick and glitter are actually the very definition of what it is to be a woman, and that men are defined by all that boyish bloke-stuff (rather than my preference of this is your biological reality but like whatever and whoever you want, wear whatever you want etc), then could I actually be putting them at risk of being told they are in the wrong body, and potentially being medicalised/ being made sterile etc?
I feel physically sick at the thought of this.

This exact thought is why I'm still awake at 1am night after night after night. My son has a set of pjs with pink unicorns on them that he loves and it chills me to the core to think what ideas may get pushed on him over stuff like that. Am seriously considering homeschooling if this doesn't resolve.

I was thinking about exactly this earlier on about my DD. She’s 8 though so we do discuss these things and she’s aware that trans is a big thing, especially in her school, but she’s happy being a female who likes mostly “boy things”.
I do know it’s easier for girls to go under the radar a bit more with these things though.

I feel so sick thinking about it.
A few months ago a male relative told one of my DC that "blue was for boys". I was so cross about him telling my kids that.
But if our society is suggesting that the colours you like have even the slightest baring on whether or not you were "born in the right body" then fuck....
My mind is blown.

I'm not sure I understand your OP about an 'alarming number of women' or why your feminist mum tried to 'shield you' rather than inform and educate you.

But the very fact that you're thinking this through, and having conversations with your son about it is fantastic.

I'd suggest not to 'hide' the fact that others are trying to force stereotypes of gender on children, keep talking, keep reinforcing that these are stereotypes and they should be free to like what they like, wear what they want. It doesn't have to be 'widely accepted'. The more groundswell of people and parents saying 'that's not how it has to be' is incredibly powerful. The more you encourage your children to recognise the nonsense is powerful.

The power is in your hands. The power of raising your children to understand biological reality and the crap that is gender stereotypes, is within your hands. Many of us have done this, and I realise that those with younger children have a bigger fight on their hands, given that the pink/blue/unicorn crap fog has descended heavily over the last few years.

But you are surrounded by a growing number of voices to support you.

Don't hide the conversation. Give it sunlight. Be proud your son likes 'things' regardless of their attachment currently to gender stereotypes.

Be informed, and ready for conversations, should they happen, with the school. Arm yourself with evidence-based material, that more and more women (and some men) are producing to support you in those conversations.

Many of us are with you, to support the difficult conversations with organisations and institutions that have swallowed down the 'koolaid' without thinking.

I always wonder what all these people think of the likes of John Maclean, Jeffree Star, Manny MUA, James Charles, etc. They are totally not conforming to gender stereotypes (I have issues with JS, but he illustrates this point nicely,) and are happily doing their own thing and wearing what they like.
When I was younger my favourite colour was blue, what's that got to do with gender is beyond me. (Now it's dark green, am I still in 'manly' territory?)
I know there is a serious point to this thread. I feel like we're going backwards in terms of gender stereotypes. Only a few years ago it felt like we were making progress. What the hell happened?

I'm right with you OP.

It's really shit and I'm honestly not sure whether any child is safe for this - because I'm not even sure it's only GNC dc that are at risk. I honestly think any child is at risk of being transed now - any child that has fairly normal feelings of "not fitting in" during their teen years, or just feeling they want to be in with the in crowd.

Gender shit is damaging - social media is damaging - this is an absolute plague on our children. I know that sounds harsh but I really feel that's the case - youtube, twitter, tumblr - it's all there. I've watched them - I've seen kids online succumb to this nonsense. "Confused about my identity" - what a load of made up shit. "Identity" wasn't even a thing when I was young. Keep your kids offline as much as possible.

Pombear by saying my mum shielded me I mean eg i never saw a Disney movie till I was at uni, never read a beauty mag till I was in my teens etc. I never liked anything princessy simply because I had never been exposed to it. Luckily for my mum I went to a hippy school surrounded by kids of likeminded parents. I personally think to a certain extent we do have to shield them (girls especially), because there is such a tirade of bullshit they are faced with when trying to figure out what it is to be a girl / woman (eg a friend grew up seeing a page 3 pair of tits on her kitchen table every.fucking.day. could have done with a bit of shielding)

I agree with what you are saying we should be doing and I hope that parents and kids do rose up together and call bullshit on all this.
But when you hear that parents are having their kids removed from their care by SS for refusing to affirm their child's transition, the thought of saying "blue is for boys" doesn't seem so terrible...

And what I meant by the alarming number of women is that I think most women could probably identify a period of their like (often pre-puberty) where they liked "boys stuff", wore "boys clothes", took part in "boys hobbies" etc.
Most women I know went through this as a phase (although I know it's not always a phase), and all of them grow up to be happy women, some straight, some lesbian. Definitely not trapped in the wrong body because they like(d) playing guitar and football and climbing trees.

Hi Sandpit that makes sense. In a way, shielding isn't helpful as you don't get to talk through what's going on in wider society, do you? That must have been a surprise for you to be exposed to that at an older age.

I think there's something about not shielding, but actually looking together at the 'bullshit' and talking about it with them. I've definitely done that over the years, and it seems to have worked here, not that that's always the solution, but the more that you can bring it into the open and share views, the better it seems to be. Particularly for girls. Some of my friends may have raised an eyebrow earlier on, but it means that through teenager-years here, we've had a much more open discussion about things in the world.

And re. the 'period of life' liking boys stuff - maybe it would be helpful to flip the perspective - it's less alarming, more affirmative that many women are speaking up about the fact that they were, what would now be called, 'gender non-conforming'.

The more women's voices that affirm that many of us didn't conform to gender stereotypes when we were growing up (and still don't now) may help to show a path for younger girls that doesn't box them into 'boy's stuff' and 'boys clothes'. Less 'alarming' and more 'affirming'?

(And same for boys, given you're talking about your son)

I think shielding along with gradual age-appropriate exposure, with discussion, is the best thing.

If you expose a 2 year old to Disney when they are too young to analyse anything, the message that to be a successful and loved person means being skinny, white, having long hair and wearing big meringue dresses will go in deeper than your words.

In a similar situation not helped by the fact my son stands out in his very gendered school. If they got Mermaids in tomorrow, the whole class would probably tell him he's in the wrong body. I'm getting increasingly nervous about the situation.

He's very happy and very obviously not got dysphoria. He may or may not be gay. We make a point of showing him people can have partners of either sex and of never assuming the sex of his future partners. I never want him to feel wrong for who he is attracted to. It seems so terrifyingly unfair that these trainings would single him out just because he doesn't follow stereotypes and might be gay. I am full of rage for the gay adult men who support this ideology that puts my kid at risk. Men who should have been role models for him.

Was so sad to read the thread which indicated this ideology has seeped into nursery education too. My son's nursery was brilliant at allowing him to just be himself. It was a shock to realise how gendered things were at primary school. I genuinely thought, prior to that, that gender stereotypes were on the way out!

A cousin of mine is a male ballet dancer. As a kid he was regularly bullied for being “girly”. He’s now a heterosexual married adult with DC and has commented that if he was a kid nowadays he’d likely be told he was trans or at the very least gay. It makes you wonder if we’ll end up with no males in female dominated fields because they’ve all been told they’re actually girls?

I would state very simply and quite often, that some people believe that some colours/toys/clothes belong to boys or girls. However we do not believe that, we believe that all colours/toys/clothes can belong to boys and girls. I’d reinforce by pointing out examples irl as much as possible.

At the moment you are your child’s biggest influence. Make the most of that as much as you can.

Yes sorry I wasn't trying to make the thread about me, or even my son to be honest, more just trying to use my upbringing, and how I intend / intended to raise my children as examples.
I wasn't very eloquent in explaining (due to the late hour and my mind racing on the subject).

I agree with WeRise that shielding is necessary at young ages (mine are all pre-school age) as the stereotypes will sink in deeper than anything you say to counteract them. And, no matter how much you shield them they will still be exposed to a lot on gendered stereotypes, so still plenty to talk about with them.

But what I was really getting at is the painful realisation that, by not teaching kids societal gender norms (via either shielding or exposure and discussion), we could potentially be putting them at risk of being put on a path to feeling uncomfortable in their body / medicalisation and all that comes with it.

Eg We all know that liking pink has nothing to do with being a woman/girl. But if it's a widely accepted norm (which it seems to be now) that pink is for girls etc and you are a 3 year old boy who likes pink, society may view that as his rejection of a "boys gender identity" when really it's just that he thinks it's nice and he has no idea about the ideas that might be attached to it.

I know what you mean OP, I worry about this too. I think when they're younger it's harder for boys - little girls wear clothes designated by the manufacturers for girls and boys and it's all fine, but if a boy rocks up to toddler group in pink ballet slippers and a tutu most people are fine but there's always a few 'jokey' comments which are, at base, derogatory.

But as they get into pre-teen and teenage years I do think the pressure on girls to look good and look a certain way and the message that they're primarily valued for their looks is rampant.

DD read a David Walliams book the other day (billionaire boy) which mentions 'page 3 girls' (IIRC the Dad is dating one). I had to explain to my 9yo what that was, in general terms. It was tempting to try and avoid the conversation but I guess she'll find out eventually though I don't think I was aware of it until my later teen years. I was pissed off with fucking David Walliams. Up to that point she'd hadn't quite realised, I don't think, how women are exploited because of their female bodies and was firmly of the opinion that breasts are for feeding babies....

I understand what you’re getting at but I will just repeat that you are their biggest influence at this time and for a few more years. What you say and how you/close family and friends behave, will have a massive effect on your dc and what they believe- don’t underestimate this.

That's interesting about the Walliams book ineed. Why was the character a page 3 girl? Was it integral to the plot? Or was it just a thoughtless inclusion of a harmful stereotype by someone who wasn't thinking? I was a fan of Walliams' previously but not impressed with a book we have for younger children which seems to justify cruelty.

I recently bought my 6 year old DS the pink unicorn trainers he was coveting, I am a bit worried about how others will react - so far his school seem GC (they have those posters up that challenge the girl/boy behaviour stereotypes). But I'm on the alert for any Mermaids language and stressed in advance about how to deal with it if anyone suggests he is trans ☹️

I've had exactly the same worries about my 4 year old son. He loves pink and purple and always wants to role play the female character or pretend to be mummy to his teddies. He's even said he wishes he was a girl a couple of times, which I think is coming from a growing awareness that a lot of the things he prefers are designated girl things. We live very rurally and I'm hoping the trans nonsense hasn't reached our local school yet, but I'm already wary. Sometimes I think I'm being ridiculous to worry but then I see or read something and realise I'm definitely not.

I share some of your concerns about my toddler boy, I dress him in flowers/ unicorns/ pink because he likes them and also to demonstrate to his older sisters that colours and animals are for everyone. He also has longer hair than one of his sisters. You don't mention if you have a male partner who is on board with your viewpoint, my dh wears pink and isn't stereotypical in his likes and dislikes which helps, and I wear jeans and t shirts which could be seen as androgynous at times too. I find the best influence is parents and adult family/ family friends, so x is a man who likes purple, y is a woman who likes blue, z has a little boy with long hair, etc. The area I live in is less likely to think trans but more likely to think 'needs to man up and be a proper boy with short hair now' but the influence of the internet is something I am concerned about as my kids all get older.

I don’t think you need to worry. Most educators are a sensible bunch and are often feminists themselves. I am!
My DS, 4, loves My Little Pony and pink and sparkly things. The nursery staff thought it was charming that he raided the dressing up box and dressed up as Elsa and The little Mermaid. They’ve never suggested he might actually have a ‘girl’s brain’. (Sadly, he doesn’t dress up like that anymore).
DS has argued with me though. He says he will be a woman when he grows up. He also insists I must have a willy because he has one. He’s just a silly confused 4 year old. I just tell him he’s a boy and he will grow up to be a man, like Daddy.

I’m the same. I have three girls and have actually found myself relieved when they opt for the pink glittery option of whatever toy, book or item of clothing we’re looking at recently. None of them so far have expressed anything that would make me think they’re transgender and we encourage them to get involved in sports and physical activities and talk about their bodies in positive terms. But it’s there in the back of my mind all the time now.

My method is to innoculate my DC against the insanity by talking about it all the time. Allow them space to ask questions, to pull apart what adverts and TV shows teach us, to think deeply about societal expectations. With young children, I ask them "why" a lot, and explain that mummy's favourite colour is blue, so obviously it isn't a boy's colour.

With older DC, we talk about how gendered expectations and norms change through time and space. How men in Sri Lanka wear what we would call "skirts" and in the 1800s all children wore dresses until the age of 7.

My DC have very limited and heavily supervised time online, and are not part of social media. We talk about internet safety and how everything you put online stays there forever.

I am incessantly banging on about it, because society doesn't let up. But I am a deeply powerful influence on my DC and I will win.

I always wonder what all these people think of the likes of John Maclean, Jeffree Star, Manny MUA, James Charles, etc.

I know that Jeffree Star and Manny have been accused of transphobia, possibly because of the fact they are men who love makeup but don't claim to be trans. Manny once tweeted, 'Roses are red, violets are blue, the number of genders is only 2' (sex, Manny, sex!) and got a hard time for that. They are always having spats though that lot so it's pretty hard to know who is saying what. And Jeffree Star comes across as a pretty vile man. But I respect them for openly being men who love makeup up.

John MacClean is just 😍😍😍