LGBT Education MP Vote

[KenDoddsDadsDogsDead18]

twitter.com/LGBTLabour/status/1110961674562031616?s=20

Do you think there is anything to read into this in respect to self id? I wouldn't have batted an eye at LGB relations being taught in primary. I already thought they were, until recently, tbh. I didn't think it was taught specifically as a lesson but didn't necessarily think it was a taboo subject either. Where I live there are loads of same sex parents, ignoring that would just be weird.

However, teaching the T, how is that going to be taught other than using words like 'born in the wrong body? I worry about the impact on 4 year olds hearing this.

Most of the discussion around this has been about homophobia. I wonder how much thought the T aspect was given when the votes were placed.

They don't say that to 4 year olds! It's really more about how there are different ways to be a girl or a boy

Such as, @Skyzalimit? How do they explain the different ways you can be a girl or a boy?

This is a good thing. Most of the materials available for primary children are nuanced, age appropriate and will be taught by their busy teachers.
There is an issue with the T and I believe it generally involves schools inviting in adults / groups with their own personal agendas and basket load of fantasies they wish to impose on children.

I reckon there is some slow progress being made in getting schools, politicians and others to understand this. Hopefully we can continue to make progress in limiting the access of T lobby groups / individuals to children while ensuring that they have access to balanced age appropriate sex / relationships education with the currently overbearing T being reduced to a small proportionate mention.

And predictable calls to 'name & shame' the naysayers and abstainers.

AncientLights

I don’t like that. I view it as bullying and I think it paints LGBT Labour in a very bad light.

the issue is that to explain transgenderism as if it's a real thing, you have to explain gender as if it's a real thing. i'm not very happy with my sons being told that gender is real by their teachers. DS1's school say they won't cover this until year 6 and we'll have the chance to review the teaching materials in advance. i'm going to be very interested to see how they handle it.

How does anyone know for certain what the schools will teach on the T? I thought the whole area was being left to individual schools to decide rather than following a rigid curriculum. How likely is it Stonewall or similar will write an easy guide & the vast majority will follow it blindly?

Admittedly I have no idea how these things work in schools.

Although this vote was obviously in respect to primary education, does it shed any light on mp views towards trans issues & self id in general or can the results not be extrapolated to such a different area? I think I'm answering my own question but not quite sure tbh. I wonder how many wanted to vote nay because of the T but couldn't due to accusations & assumptions you would be seen as having bigoted views towards the LGB too.

Here's one example from the No Outsiders programme:

equalitiesplans.blogspot.com/2015/10/transgender-equality-are-you-boy-or-are.html

KenDoddsDadsDogsDead18

Schools are supposed to agree their PSHE policies with their parents.

It’s going to be down to parents to hold schools to account and make sure nothing dodgy slips under the radar under the guise of ‘inclusion’.

Repeal what don't you like? Those Twitter comments calling for naming & shaming of those who won't toe the line, or the fact that I drew attention to them? It's somewhat unclear from what you've written. I think it's very telling, not to say worrying, that the first comment was wanting a list of their names.

AncientLights

Sorry, I don’t like the twitter comments, I view that as bullying. Not you drawing attention to it.

The govt are very 'teflon ' about this. Given the nature and interests of some of their civil servants that's probably a good thing. But sadly - as we have seen - it allows all the lobby groups to pop up with their insidious penguin and genderbread packages and offer training in schools.
There was a time when schools developed SRE programmes alongside Health Ed experts but as local authority budgets have shrunk these posts have been cut and the lobby groups have taken their place - thus allowing them to impose some dire materials / ideologies on schools and children.

I think there have been some useful threads where people have identified questions that parents can ask to ensure that materials used are scientifically / biologically accurate / in line with safeguarding guidelines etc and Transgender Trend covers some of this as well.

It is important that this doesn't get caught up in the homophobia of the current protests outside schools. Age appropriate / inclusive SRE is important. Lobby groups pushing hormone blockers, breast binding, undermining safeguarding and removing sex segregated rights in schools is unacceptable and that's the distinction that schools need to understand.

LangCleg that’s from 2015, has that seriously not been withdrawn yet? So many things wrong with that I don’t know where to start.

So the link langcleng has posted includes everything I'm worried about and a lot more which I hadn't really thought about. Ugh!

LangCleg that’s from 2015, has that seriously not been withdrawn yet? So many things wrong with that I don’t know where to start.

Still on the No Outsiders resource website.

There's also a recommendation to show a Pop n Olly video. Showing a video at school is likely to reassure parents monitoring their primary-age children's internet activity. The Pop n Olly YouTube channel (which, after recommendation from school, parents would likely be unconcerned about) contains a video encouraging young children to fill out the recent GRA consultation by using the Stonewall template.

I do not think any school should be including material contributed by an outfit that encourages young children to fill out government consultations with answers supplied by a lobby group.

Age appropriate / inclusive SRE is important. Lobby groups pushing hormone blockers, breast binding, undermining safeguarding and removing sex segregated rights in schools is unacceptable and that's the distinction that schools need to understand.

I hope the schools get a better grip on the distinction than the government. In the response to the RSE Consultation, they don't seem to understand that 'T' needs to be treated differently from LGB. They talk about 'the topic of gender identity and sexuality', as though it is all the same thing.

30. There were differing views as to when pupils should be taught about LGBT relationships: those respondents who disagreed with the closed question were particularly likely to mention the topic of gender identity and sexuality and were largely in opposition to its teaching.

46. Respondents who disagreed in the closed question were particularly likely to mention the topic of gender identity and sexuality and were largely in opposition to its teaching.

Within the topics relating to sex, gender identity and sexuality (879) was the most frequently mentioned subject area.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/780768/Government_Response_to_RSE_Consultation.pdf

This is exactly the reason that LGB (fact) should be separate from T (currently preaching fiction).

Incredibly difficult to explain that you object to only one part without opening yourself up to the kind of criticism that’s all too apparent from that thread.

I am very concerned about No Outsiders, not from the same perspective as the Muslim parents who are protesting about the existence of homosexuality being taught in primary schools. But because, as @LangCleg and @OldCrone say, they are also preaching gender identity ideology to our children. No Outsiders claim to be teaching kids about the Equality Act, yet there is no focus on the sex protected characteristic in the Equality Act, and they do not teach children about sex discrimination. In fact, quite the opposite. My kid's head teacher was trained by No Outsiders. My DD was then read a weird pre-school book called My Princess Boy, with pics of people with no faces, where the whole emphasis was on a boy who wanted to wear pink dresses and liked sparkly things. It reinforced sexist stereotypes - that this is what it means to be a girl. And sex discrimination laws were not created to allow boys to access the most shallow and sexist aspects of 'being a girl' and to wear pink sparkly dresses. If No Outsiders and schools wanted to tackle sexist stereotypes, they should have read books about girls becoming doctors or pilots. Or if they wanted to emphasise boys, they should have focused on boy's behaviour not their dresses. So a book about a caring boy who wants to be a nurse would have been more appropriate. Then my DD's class was shown an awful interview with the author and her 5 year old son, where the mother was clearly monetising her son through writing about him and doing media interviews. He was clearly learning that to please his mum (and make her her livelihood), he had to perpetuate this behaviour. It just smacked of the whole trans child/parent thing.

No Outsiders do not seem to understand sexism, are fully on board with the whole trans ideology, and are dodgy imo. It all smacks of brainwashing and indoctrination of children. I feel similarly about Drag Queen Story Time.

I consider a teacher uncritically teaching transgenderism to my children to be equivalent to them uncritically being taught fundamentalist Christianity, or fundamentalist Islam.

I don't want those beliefs being passed onto my children as de facto truths. I'm quite happy for them to know that they exist, but I want them to know that this is how some people think. other people think like this. here are the some of the consequences of holding hard line anti science views. here are some of the consequences of holding hard line sexist views. and so on

obviously the no outstiders programme does not do that.

Sunkisses
I agree with most of what you've said, but as for the boy wanting to wear pink sparkly dresses, why shouldn't he? It's just that it should be made clear that he is a boy wearing a dress, and that the clothes don't make him into a girl. If we were more accepting of both boys and girls behaving and dressing in a non-stereotypical way, we'd be a step further towards getting rid of 'gender' altogether.

I've contacted my MP.

I have concerns about Queer Theory being given any time when it comes to relationship sessions in schools. Trans validation cannot come at the expense of young people.

It is dangerous to deceive girls into thinking that a relationship with a transwoman is a anything other than a heterosexual relationship. As such, there is a risk of unwanted pregancy.

The same goes for a so-called gay relationship between a boy and transman. The lie - that transmen are men - does not mean that contraception is redundant.

If the LGBT input includes speakers like Alex Drummond (beard, no hormones, no surgery, describes self as a lesbian) then the LGB will have to explain where Queer Theory and gender fits with sexuality.

I bet they can't - without admitting that transwomen are men.

For anyone in Wales, there's a consultation currently open on 'Draft guidance on relationships and sexuality education'.

Closes on Monday (April 1st).

gov.wales/draft-guidance-relationships-and-sexuality-education

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3516576-New-consultation-on-Relationships-and-Sexuality-Education-in-schools-in-Wales

Repeal ah, ok. It seems to be their first reaction to bully dissenters. I'd also like to see the names of those who voted against or abstained, but for different reasons to the TAs.

I don't believe that the MPs in question knew what they were voting for, same goes for the threads appearing on mn recently aiming to get parents to campaign against "homophobia".

I am all for LGB awareness education alongside scientific sex education. I believe children should be taught biological fact, basic psychology, healthy relationships and how to recognise and deal with abuse (coercive and otherwise), how to stay safe and keep others safe.

How can we teach children to learn to trust their own judgement and develop their self esteem by systematically removing their rights to their own bodies, safe spaces, language and reality?

The T part is homophobic and contradicts both scientific sex education and LGB rights. It is also intent on laying the path towards medicalisation and corrective rape culture. This is unacceptable.

It needs to be clear to everyone involved in child development and safeguarding how damaging stereotyping is and then how transculture forces stereotyping on society and both sexes.

There is a wolf beneath the LGB clothing, it call itself T but in fact has almost nothing to do with the tiny few dysphoric sufferers in our society.

It seems to be their first reaction to bully dissenters

The mob rule/bully MP tactics I see being used with ever increasing frequency, concern me greatly and not just in relation to this issue. I think it’s very damaging to democracy.