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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Yorkshire Ripper Files

61 replies

hackmum · 27/03/2019 13:30

I haven't watched this documentary, but there's a very good review by Tim Dowling:

www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/mar/27/the-yorkshire-ripper-files-a-very-british-crime-story-review-a-stunningly-mismanaged-manhunt

Some of it is so chilling. West Yorkshire Police's multiple errors were the result not just of staggering incompetence but deep misogyny.

And this quote from the attorney-general's speech at the trial is just extraordinary:

“Some were prostitutes, but perhaps the saddest part of the case is that some were not. The last six attacks were on totally respectable women.”

I'd love to say things were different now. But they're not.

OP posts:
emilybrontescorsett · 28/03/2019 07:37

One of the shocking aspects for me was just how many women with children to support had to turn to prostitution.
There seemed to be no alternative.
I remember when I worked in a bank in my 20s and all the women with children had been told that they should pack work in and be full time mums!
No wonder there was so little opportunity for women.
Then the bloke dismissing the idea that it should be the kerb crawlers who were fined and penalised, laughing at the idea. Then saying no, the women were told they would be prosecuted as if that was the only rational response.
It reminded me of the Steven Lawrence case, institutionalised racism and sexism.
The black woman who was attacked was told she was wrong, and that her attacker was black!!
Wtf.
I truly believe the police were responsible for the total shambles of this case.
Disregarding factual evidence but believing nonsense.
The handwriting alone, they may as well have read the bloody horoscopes for inspiration.
I lived in West Yorkshire as a child when this was happening.
I remember the police setting up in a local car park in an attempt to catch the ripper. They had the fake handwriting displayed and the fake rape recording playing along with the photo fit. It was all about these 3 pieces of 'evidence' despite the fact that victims had repeatedly told police that he had a local Yorkshire accent.
Looking back now, my mum had to walk down an alley way every night after work to get home. I bet she was terrified but couldn't take the police advice to 'stay off the streets' as she had to go to work.

meditrina · 28/03/2019 07:58

I found this a really interesting programme.

I am old enough to remember all this as it happened, and the fear, and how it altered how people behaved - mainly women of course, but also some men who learned how not to behave in accidentally threatening ways (walking behind a woman at night, for example)

It's the unoackaging of the discourse round the murders I have found interesting. Because yes, I realise how much I had internalised the idea that it was hatred of prostitites that became a wider bloodlust. But it seems that might all be an invented narrative, and it was just a desire to attack women and doing so at night in relatively secluded areas was 'safest' and of course prostitutes are one group that fit those target selection criteria.

I remember the reclaim the night campaigning (took part!) - and the XRay Spex track that featured briefly.

But bizarrely, I never (at the time) associated that Thin Lizzy track with these murders.

The detail that struck me most strongly from the programme is that the women who survived Ripper attacks and said he did not have a geordie accent were not believed.

And the message that I'm getting is that here was considerably more blind faith in authority. Most if the time, that was fine - most people are sufficiently competent and dealing with matters in a decent and fair enough manner. Back then it was close to unthinkable that police would be less than upstanding (except rare exceptional bad apples).
But looking at this investigation, and the social attitudes it exposes, shows how those assumptions were not well placed.

OrchidInTheSun · 28/03/2019 08:14

Emilybronte - my mum was fired when she got married in the late 50s. Perfectly legally.

I was young when the Yorkshire Ripper was active but I can distinctly remember the tone of the news reports changing on the radio when he first killed an 'innocent woman'. It was blindingly obvious even to an 11 year old.

Rubidium · 28/03/2019 09:43

The Ipswich murders a few years ago were really reminiscent of the Ripper but they also highlighted how things have changed. I really noticed that the Suffolk police always referred to the victims as 'women', never 'prostitutes', even though they all were. Also the advances in forensic science and technology, with the CCTV footage and mobile phone tracing. Perhaps the most striking thing was that the Ipswich victims were all working as prostitutes to fund drug habits, and I don't remember drugs being mentioned at all in relation to the Ripper victims.

Floisme · 28/03/2019 09:53

Yes to be fair to West Yorkshire police, I think they just reflected the general view at this time. The change in tone everywhere after Barbara Leach and Jacqueline Hill (university students) were murdered was palpable.

I also remember football crowds chanting 'You'll never catch the ripper' at the police. And men - many of whom I had considered friends - joking and sneering at the suggestion of a curfew on men. I've never forgotten those attitudes and I never will.

LangCleg · 28/03/2019 10:03

I also remember football crowds chanting 'You'll never catch the ripper' at the police.

To be fair, I think that's the one thing that got a tiny bit misrepresented in the programme. The football fans weren't lionising Sutcliffe for reasons of misogyny; they were taunting the police for not catching him (cos obviously, in those days, it was football fans vs police). Obviously the effect was misogynistic but the intent not so much. The commentary in the show presented it as how far Sutcliffe was regarded as some kind of folk legend.

lucasthecat · 28/03/2019 10:05

The red riding books - highlighted the corruption misogyny and incompetence of the West Yorkshire Police - in a losely fictionalised version of the ripper enquiry. Truly horrifying - when you know it was all pretty much true - the same police force that used to go round to Jimmy Seville’s flat every week as part of the coffee club.

Floisme · 28/03/2019 10:09

Obviously the effect was misogynistic but the intent not so much.
I was in some of those crowds and I beg to disagree. They were taunting the police because they didn't care whether the ripper was caught or not.

Floisme · 28/03/2019 10:13

I would go as far as to say that the only men I knew personally who really cared whether he was caught were my dad - because he was worried about me - and men with Geordie accents who were sick of people taking the piss. Is that unreasonable? Possibly but 30 years on, this whole episode still makes me shake with anger.

Floisme · 28/03/2019 10:20

30 years? J.H Christ it's 40 isn't it Shock

OrchidInTheSun · 28/03/2019 10:27

Yes Flo - it's like Criado Perez says - men treat women as outliers. It's why they think it's outrageous that their freedom should be curtailed rather than ours.

On that note, did you see the op ed from the Times sport editor saying that we need to be kinder to transwomen? Hmm

whitesoxx · 28/03/2019 10:28

Jimmy Seville 🍊** Smile

Floisme · 28/03/2019 10:41

Yes the reaction to the suggestion of a curfew on men was very telling. It wasn't just concern about the practicalities - men were outraged at the idea that they should undergo any inconvenience at all. Reclaim the Night marches were derided.

I'm stepping away for a while now before I self combust. It's interesting how angry I still am about it.

Lungelady · 28/03/2019 10:43

I mentioned Red Riding books to my dh last night. Spot on

Lymphy · 28/03/2019 22:11

I’m watching it now. My dad was taken for questioning by police, wrong accent in the wrong place when the police were utterly desperate. He didn’t mind, but he did say they kept asking him about “prozies” in an awful manner. He’s not sure if they were just goading him a bit in the hope they had their guy or if that was the general consensus of the police. I fear it was the latter

Limer · 29/03/2019 13:29

I watched all 3 episodes yesterday, they were all available on catch-up. I remember lots of details about the case, but to see it all drawn together, with the interviews from now contrasted with the historical footage really hit home just how completely useless and incompetent W Yorks police were.

I didn't know about the £5 note though - and the fact that the police could have pursued that line of enquiry and caught him sooner.

The police displayed totally unacceptable sexist and racist views, but above all what came across was just how arrogant and stupid they were.

Heartbreaking to think how those poor women suffered.

twattymctwatterson · 29/03/2019 13:41

I didn't realise Peter Sutcliffe had Paranoid Schizophrenia actually - it was before my time.

That doesn't mean he shouldn't have been locked up, he was an incredibly dangerous individual who refused treatment for years but he should have been sent straight to Broadmoor

emilybrontescorsett · 29/03/2019 19:07

I'm not convinced he was a paranoid schizophrenic, his wife was and I thought a lot of experts since believed that he was able to convince people he was because he knew so much about the condition after living through it with her.
I think the fake letters and tapes clouded people's judgement. He seemed to latch onto the myth that he was driven by voices to 'rid the streets of prostitutes'.
A view which wouldn't quite wash today.
It's kind of along the lines of 'ridding the streets of non whites' a view which would have been acceptable in the 70s/80s amongst a lot of people.
I think a lot of people thought there had to be a reason to do what he did.
It's actually thought he attacked a man but the man overpowered him so he thought he'd better only attack women from then on.

meditrina · 29/03/2019 19:31

I think people wanted to believe he was somehow ill, mentally not right, because it was just too awful to think someone could be that evil but totally 'normal'.

But that is also a snare, because the law decrees that someone who is cured (as far as that can be ascertained) should be released - because if they were acting only because of an illness that has now been resolved they are legally deemed no longer to be a threat.

And if ever there was someone who should never be released, Sutcliffe must be towards the top of the list

Socrates11 · 29/03/2019 22:27

Not watched the documentary yet but its good to read about what people think about it here.

I did read Wicked Beyond Belief: the hunt for the Yorkshire R. Michael Bilton (2003) last year. It deals with the case really comprehensively if anyone wants to do any further reading.

twattymctwatterson · 30/03/2019 06:26

emily he was diagnosed at the time by 4 psychiatrists but had his diagnosis confirmed just before he was moved to Broadmoor. He refused treatment for 9 years (you'd think if he was sane and it was all a lie he'd accept treatment) before a court order was obtained to treat him. His behaviour in prison and in Broadmoor was very much consistent with someone who's deeply disturbed and he was repeatedly attacked because of it. I don't think there's much doubt that he's mentally ill.

I actually don't know how I feel after reading a bit about it. The judge essentially insisted trial go ahead as a result of the public interest, rather than accepting Sutcliffe was mentally ill.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 30/03/2019 09:21

I remember the case and I remember a lot of criticism of the press coverage after the first "innocent" victim was murdered. People reacted quite strongly against it.

The contrast between the coverage of the Ripper and that of the Cambridge Rapist - who only attacked "nice girls" was striking. I was living in Cambridge at the time and we were all on very high alert.

Regarding Sutcliffe's MH, I met two forensic psychiatrists some years later, one of whom had been involved in the case. They told me that Sutcliffe was so ill that he thought God was talking to him even during the trial. But the British public demanded a trial so there had to be one even if he wasn't fit to stand. It was one of those establishment fixes, a bit like the Bulger murder.

The backlash against the reporting of the Ripper case paid off, if slowly. The victims of the later serial killer, the Suffolk Strangler, were covered in a much more sympathetic way. They were portrayed as precious sisters, daughters, rather than being defined just as prostitutes. Having lived through both the difference was striking.

HorsewithnoBackstop · 30/03/2019 09:39

Yorkshire Ripper? Suffolk Strangler?

Give me a fucking break..

If I was in charge of the stupid names I wouldn't fuck about - I'd call them what they are:

Yorkshire ARSEHOLE.

Suffolk INADEQUATE.

The names they give them makes them sound like they're baddies in a comic.

Floisme · 30/03/2019 09:46

I accept Sutcliffe was mentally ill. I can even accept some of the excuses for West Yorkshire Police. (I've not watched the doc yet but they were filing information by hand on index cards.) What I find harder to accept is - beyond being concerned for family and girlfriends - how little men seemed to care.

I'll never forget reading Jill Tweedie in The Guardian, before Sutcliffe was caught, asking why men didn't seem that upset, why weren't they talking about it, writing to newspapers, questioning themselves. Boy were they cross with her. They seemed far more outraged about that article than they were about the killings.

I learned a lot about men during that time, none of it good.

ThePollutedShadesOfPemberley · 30/03/2019 09:52

Life On Mars was a documentary not fiction.

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