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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transpeople and Judaism

12 replies

WisdomOfCrowds · 26/03/2019 21:23

OK, I'll be honest I don't know a huge amount about Judaism so if I write anything stupid or offensive I'm sorry in advance. I was reading about "packers" earlier (I know, I know) and they come in both circumcised and uncircumcised versions and it got me wondering what (if any) position the different Jewish denominations held on it. Went down a bit of a rabbit hole and found quite a lot of Reddit threads discussing it. This comment from one the those threads summarised my question quite neatly though:

*Is the obligation [to be circumcised] on men, or on penises?

If it's on penises: Trans women who haven't had surgery require brit milah. Trans men who haven't had surgery don't require anything. Trans men who have had surgery require hatafat dam brit (unless it's possible to construct a circumcisable penis, but I don't think it is).

If it's on men: Trans women never require anything. Trans men require hatafat dam brit whether they've had surgery or not.*

www.reddit.com/r/Judaism/comments/9vhxz3/sooo_really_really_awkward_and_embarrassing/

Could only find one official position on it which was from The Rabbinical Assembly which is the international association of Conservative rabbis. They say, thankfully, that it's about the penis not the person.

www.rabbinicalassembly.org/sites/default/files/public/halakhah/teshuvot/2011-2020/transgender-halakhah.pdf

But there were lots of other really interesting points of conflict, such as who can prepare bodies for burial (both "can a transwoman prepare a women's body"?, and "who can prepare a transperson's body?"). Also issues of menstrual separation, and the mitzvah of procreation which "applies to men and not to women because of the health risks of pregnancy and labor to women. Requiring women to become pregnant would subject them to dangers to their health". Here a person was considered to be "the new gender" once a person was "living full time as the new gender, and had gone through psychological counseling, hormonal therapy, and sex reassignment surgery." It also acknowledge that trans men can become pregnant but doesn't square this with the earlier procreation clauses.

There were some interesting other issues raised on the Reddit threads, such as using the foreskin during MTF labioplasty and what difference that would make for post transition transwomen converting to Judaism. Also one OP on the threads was asking about converting with "stealth" which I assume from context means withholding the fact they transitioned from their Rabbi/ community, which prompted this reply:

*Yichud and shomer negiah are both important, and by presenting yourself as male, you could cause other Jews, and yourself, to sin. That's not okay. There's also the issue of the mechitza.

I get that you identify as male, but that's not necessarily how halacha views you (certainly not without surgery, and possibly not with). Frankly, "stealthing" would result in you disrespecting other people's boundaries, and that's not okay.*

www.reddit.com/r/Judaism/comments/9zkjjp/considering_converting_as_a_trans_man/

Finally (last bit I promise) I read this interesting article about Jewish people who transition (as opposed to trans people who convert)

www.gendertree.com/Transformed_Before_God.htm

Exerts include:

transitioning from female to male “made involvement with Judaism possible for me,” says Jerrold, a twenty-four-year-old man. “As a female, I had no connection to the religion at all. My Bat Mitzvah was a farce. I was the first girl to be allowed to read Haftorah at my shul but still wasn’t allowed to read Torah. None of it meant anything to me.” But as soon as Jerrold became a man, he felt as though he had a place in Judaism. His only awkwardness comes because he didn’t receive the upbringing and training that would have come with being raised as a male. He doesn’t know how to put on tefillin, and he only knows Haftorah trope, as opposed to Torah trope. He still feels “awkward about women’s roles,” such as the fact that women must sit on the other side of the mechitzah (the barrier that divides men from women in Orthodox synagogues). But as a man, he doesn’t feel it’s his place to raise these issues on women’s behalf.

and

there are some who regard transgenderism as a special benefit. Razi tells of one Orthodox Jew who identified as bisexual but vowed he’d “take a gun to the head” before sleeping with a man. Someone brought up the issue of transmen, and the man became excited, because that would be perfect. “Because to me he’d be a man, but to G-d he’d still be a woman, so it would be allowed!” the man said.

and

*Now that Thomas has converted from Catholicism to Judaism and from male to female, she mostly dates female-to-male transsexuals. If she chooses to have a baby with one of these transmen, most likely her partner will carry the baby in his womb. But Thomas will be the baby’s mother in every other sense. Such reverse-gender parenting situations are rare, but becoming more common in San Francisco, where transmen and transwomen sometimes date.

If the baby’s father is a gentile, will the baby be Jewish? It depends on whether you believe the mother is the person who gives birth to a child, or the child’s female parent.*

Sorry that was so long but it's been an interesting rabbit hole for me, seeing how this all fits in (or not) with religious tenants based based on binary sex. Once again, apologies if I've said anything really off the mark about Judaism that has offended anybody.

OP posts:
ConcreteUnderpants · 26/03/2019 22:10

Very interesting and I'll admit, not things I'd even considered.

In all honesty, in Judaism, who knows?! What do they say, ask 2 rabbis, get 3 answers??

I am liberal so can only really see it from that point and there is actually a meeting and a few talks coming up soon. My movement is very progressive (one of the original stalwart supporters of gay marriages) and has no sexism (women rabbis, no sex segregation etc) so in that respect is very different from the Orthodox movement, where women have a very different role and rights regarding the Torch.

For us, having either parent Jewish makes the offspring Jewish, and male converts can get their bit chopped off or symbolically have a finger pin pricked to represent circumcision if they wish (circumcision is encouraged, but not mandatory on newborns) so that wouldn't be a problem. All the converts ive know have been more than happy with this. Unless of course someone made a huge song and dance about wanting an adult circumcision, which one could say would be very attention-seekig and make it all about them rather than their conversion. But that's not going to happen, is it?!

So I can see actually see them jumping all over this equality' thing. I'll keep my ears open and check the 'Jews News' mags and papers I get and will update on anything I read.

ConcreteUnderpants · 26/03/2019 22:13

Would be interesting to hear from a Muslim point of view regarding the circumcision aspect.
Definitely a rabbit hole of weird thoughts...

donquixotedelamancha · 26/03/2019 22:21

I think many of those points are moot.

Judaism and Butlerism are different religions. Jews don't believe TWAW and TRAs don't have to eat Kosher. Rabbinical teachings tend not to be worked around another religion's beliefs- especially when those beliefs contradict material reality.

I suppose one could be culturally Jewish and follow Butlerism, but one of the great benefits of Butlerism is that in it, if you identify as something you are that thing. Not only that but Butlerism hold that it is the only source of authority on these matters.

So a Butlerian Jihadi can identify as an orthodox Jewish woman and as long he performs that role it doesn't matter if he is of Irish extraction, isn't circumcised and loves a bacon butty. Butlerism would hold that it's view that he is an orthodox Jewish woman is more important than anything Judaism has to say on the issue.

JellySlice · 26/03/2019 22:48

transitioning from female to male “made involvement with Judaism possible for me,” says Jerrold, a twenty-four-year-old man. “As a female, I had no connection to the religion at all. My Bat Mitzvah was a farce. I was the first girl to be allowed to read Haftorah at my shul but still wasn’t allowed to read Torah. None of it meant anything to me.” But as soon as Jerrold became a man, he felt as though he had a place in Judaism.

Alternatively, join a Progressive synagogue, such as Liberal, Reform or Masorti, and be part of an egalitarian community that treats males and females the same, with full rights in and access to all aspects of Jewish faith and practice.

RosaFreedman1983 · 26/03/2019 22:59

Good evening. This is a really interesting set of questions. I will start by saying I am not an expert, and that what I am writing is based on being an Orthodox Jew who has (unsurprisingly given what has happened over the past year) looked into this in the texts and asked lots of questions of Rabbis and learned scholars.

The general consensus in Orthodox Judaism (other than one Orthodox Rabbi who has left his community and joined a progressive community because he has a trans-identifying child) is that transgenderism goes against Jewish law (halachah). Transgenderism (unlike homosexuality) does not feature in Jewish texts (and yes thee are stories where someone dresses as though they are a person of the opposite sex but that is to trick someone else into doing something, etc).

In the Talmud there are discussions about people who are intersex (the crude English translations for the two categories they discuss are androgynous and hermaphrodite -- but these of course are terms from many centuries ago and not ones we would use today) and whether they would count for a prayer quorate (ten men over the age of 13) or could marry a person of the opposite sex and so on. These are discussions concerned with the law in these situations. The Talmud, of course, is concerned with legal problems and how the law applies in and to society.

In terms of transgenderism, in Orthodox Judaism the generally held opinion is that a person is considered to be and treated as the sex in which they were born (with specific issues around intersex discussed and addressed), and there is no changing sex for the purposes of religious rituals, whether prayer quorate, preparing bodies for burial, the different positive commandments for men and women, marriage, and so on.

As to circumcision, that is an obligation on parents for their child, or for an adult male (over 13) who has not been circumcised (whether because parents chose not to do so or because of conversion). Because females cannot become males in Judaism then we can understand that the obligation of the covenant through circumcision does not apply to a constructed penis.

There are reformed versions of Judaism (progressive, liberal, reform, and so on) but these do not believe in or teach central tenets of Judaism (e.g. that the Torah was given from G-d to Moses on Mount Sinai, or that there will be a Messiah and resurrection of the dead and a third Temple, and many more central beliefs) so whether their teachings on Judaism (about any issue, including transgenderism) are considered religious rather than cultural is debatable. But what I have found (particularly during discussions around the GRA consultations) is that in Orthodox Jewish law and practice transgenderism is not part of the landscape in terms of religious laws and practice.

DonDadaOnTheDownLow · 27/03/2019 08:20

I wanted to say yes yes to "In all honesty, in Judaism, who knows?! What do they say, ask 2 rabbis, get 3 answers??" and add that every Rabbi I've ever spoken to has been straight down the line common-sense, then concrete comes along and says that...

I cannot comment upon Islam, but having used the local hamams in Istanbul (not those catering to westeners) - a transwoman would be literally beaten and thrown back out in to the street. The women's baths are for women. Strictly so.

ConcreteUnderpants · 27/03/2019 10:53

The women's baths are for women

Goodness, I'd never even thought about the mikvot.
Admittedly from my experience, they are used far far more by Orthodox Jews, so I can't see those changing at the moment, but the more liberal/reform ones...

RosaFreedman1983 · 27/03/2019 11:38

A mikveh is only used after menstruation or childbirth (or for conversion) -- why would a trans woman use a mikveh?

A transman might want to use the mikveh before Rosh HaShannah or Yom Kippur (or perhaps every day if he is chareidi) but as it is communal for men I can't see that being allowed to happen under halachah

ConcreteUnderpants · 27/03/2019 12:03

Aside from some MTF claiming to have periods, mikvot are not just used for menstruation, childbirth and conversion at all !

They can be used for other life changes as well - marriage, fertility, times of joy and sorrow. But as I said only really Orthodox Jews use them regularly

I suspect this will just go the usual way as with homosexuality, women's equality etc.
The Orthodox movement will hate it/ban it.
The Liberal movement will be all embracing with total equality. And Mermaid loving it seems.

Oldermum156 · 27/03/2019 15:13

I've seen this buzz going around the internet lately that Jews recognize 6 genders or some such twaddle. They absolutely do not.

Orthodox and other strict religions - you are a boy or girl. Intersex people are put into a category at birth, if it turns out to be mistaken later, it is dealt with, but you are expected to stick to your gender role given at birth until/unless later evidence proves it was wrong. "Feeling like you are in the wrong body" carries no weight in Orthodox Judaism.

Conservatives are a bit on the fence. I think if you go full transsexual, bottom surgery and all, they may let you switch. But it is a big deal.

Reform Jews are extremely liberal on the issue and you are whatever you want to be, basically. They do not generally use the mikveh anymore, so that isn't an issue for them. I live in a very liberal city. The only mikveh is run by the Orthodox. There are 2 liberal synagogues and they do not have a mikveh at all. I do not think the Orthodox will be letting random Reform Jews, let alone transwomen, use it.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 27/03/2019 15:33

'A mikveh is only used after menstruation or childbirth (or for conversion) -- why would a trans woman use a mikveh?!'

Some of them claim to menstruate.

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