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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Wings of Scotland court case

207 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 25/03/2019 16:39

Brief context:

Ex Scottish labour Kezia Dugdale said (in print) that Wings was a homophobe because of a tweet he made.

The reason I think this case may be of interest is because so far:

Chelsea Manning is mentioned. @WingsScotland says Manning is ‘brave’ & a ‘hero’ but has repeatedly been accused of transphobia for his language towards the whistleblower. ‘An empirical biological fact that he is still a man,’ Campbell tells the court.

.@WingsScotland adds that he doesn’t know Manning’s sexuality & says it has no bearing on accusations of homophobia. Various comments by Wings referring to Manning as ‘he’. Being a transphobe does not make you a homophobe, Wings adds.

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 25/03/2019 20:30

Let it not be forgotten that Manning punched a female commanding officer in the face and gloated about what they’d done to “the dyke.”

Indeed.

NightmareDaemon · 25/03/2019 20:36

Counsel: What is a wank hole?
Wings: A hole into which one might wank, he explains.

😂

LassOfFyvie · 25/03/2019 21:25

Scottish politics 2019 here

To be clear the person behind Wings Over Scotland is neither a politician nor resident in Scotland.

The tweets about Mundell were not funny. The Wings person has posted on here in the past. I will be very surprised if he does not have a Google alert and I am sure he will be aware of this.

I dislike him and his website intensely. I would not ally with him on anything.

ScrimshawTheSecond · 25/03/2019 21:27

Wings is known for accurate, well researched and referenced articles. Author can be very unpleasant but his integrity is respected across the political spectrum, I think.

youllhavehadyourtea · 25/03/2019 21:32

WoS is Fab.
Go Rev.

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 25/03/2019 21:32

Counsel: What is a wank hole?
Wings: A hole into which one might wank, he explains.
Grin Grin Grin

LassOfFyvie · 25/03/2019 21:49

Go Rev

Which church is he a reverend of?

LassOfFyvie · 25/03/2019 21:51

Author can be very unpleasant but his integrity is respected across the political spectrum, I think

He has his fans. I can't recall seeing ringing endorsements of his integrity.

BlackForestCake · 25/03/2019 22:43

The tweets about Mundell were not funny.

Well, that is not the issue. The issue is whether they were homophobic.

And whether Dugdale would have denounced him quite as fiercely if he had been a pro-Labour blogger rather than a pro-independence one.

It seems to me that Wings is attacked for being effective at what he does, rather than for any of his real or perceived sins.

SpeakUpXXWomen · 26/03/2019 00:06

Wings over Scotland is the first (possibly only) place I saw public polls of the general attitude to self id in Scotland. It was not what the govt would have us believe!

This is the IWD post.
wingsoverscotland.com/the-rights-of-women/

I don't agree with everything said on this site, because people are unique! I absolutely believe in free speech and totally respect that at some point, somewhere, people being accused of various hate crime "phobias" in an effort to discredit every word they have ever uttered, need to take a stand.

There is not a soul in a bar in Scotland wouldn't read that as the joke it is, nothing homophobic about it.

I can't tell you what a breath of fresh air Wings have provided against a backdrop of ever increasing lunacy at Holyrood. This is a great case, which ever way it goes (and I hope he gets his case) he has won it already by being as sharp in court as on the page.

SpeakUpXXWomen · 26/03/2019 00:12

Other coverage running here
twitter.com/BBCPhilipSim/status/1110207232497647616

Mr Campbell rejects that he is a transphobe; he says he thinks Chelsea Manning is a “hero” and “fabulous”. But he says it’s “delusional” of CM to claim to be a woman. Mr Dunlop asks if that is intolerant; “no, I don’t believe the statement of biological fact is intolerance”

I'd be flung out of this court for applauding at this point.

LassOfFyvie · 26/03/2019 00:27

There is not a soul in a bar in Scotland wouldn't read that as the joke it is

I don't read it as a joke. I thought it was puerile, nasty and not in the least bit funny. I don't think it is homophobic- although a bit peculiar that the "joke" is predicated on the assumption homosexual men can't be parents.

he has won it already by being as sharp in court as on the page

How? The "wank hole" comment? Some of you are very easily impressed.

PencilsInSpace · 26/03/2019 00:37

Lass, is there anything you do find funny?

SpeakUpXXWomen · 26/03/2019 00:39

Are you still in the pub Lass?

CharlieParley · 26/03/2019 00:40

It's unlikely that WoS would have sued had KD not decided to call him a homophobe in the Scottish Parliament and then in a big column in a daily newspaper.

However, WoS has supported gay rights vocally and persistently on his website (there are supportive articles about the same-sex marriage campaign going back to 2012 on his blog), and privately without talking about this as was revealed when gay people told their stories of his support for them.

The tweet is a tasteless, mean-spirited joke. What it isn't is homophobic - quite the opposite as he expresses a wish that a gay person had embraced their homosexuality earlier than that person did in reality.

I would guess that the reason the defence is going heavy on the transphobic stuff is because it is now widely assumed that if you oppose the T you oppose the LGB and because accusing someone as transphobic is almost a surefire way now to ruin that person's reputation (and more).

Whatever the outcome, this is an important case for women's rights campaigners in this debate, as WoS supports equal rights for trans people but opposes GRA reform, self-id, compelled speech, that sex is a construct and most importantly opposes the erosion of women's sex-based rights. He does this in uncompromising fashion, and ever ready with a swearword if he feels like it (he feels like it a lot).

If the defence convinces the court that WoS is transphobic, homophobia is an easier sell for them. It's a strategy that would seem to be promising right now, as many GC people have been branded as transphobic for far milder statements, with much success.

And it's interesting for us because he explicitly rejects TWAW with an absolute refusal that males who identify as trans can ever become women.

But freedom of expression actually includes the right to offend, so the rude tweets alone probably wouldn't do the trick. Never know these days though...

LassOfFyvie · 26/03/2019 00:45

Mr Dunlop reads more Wings tweets calling Ruth Davidson a “dribblewit” and a “mouth-breathing dolt”;

I don't find this funny either PencilsInSpace Do you?

Why does he call himself "Reverend"? Which church ordained him?

LassOfFyvie · 26/03/2019 00:49

What it isn't is homophobic - quite the opposite as he expresses a wish that a gay person had embraced their homosexuality earlier than that person did in reality

Gay people don't become parents? I don't think it is homophobic but that defence of it makes no sense.

Schlerp · 26/03/2019 00:51

Wings /SC is a man who hates feminism and feminists with a passion. He is no friend to women unless it suits his agenda.

HirplesWithHaggis · 26/03/2019 00:54

Evidence?

CharlieParley · 26/03/2019 00:59

Correction to the above: sequence was first column in paper, then parliament

Gay people don't become parents? I don't think it is homophobic but that defence of it makes no sense.

His point is that had Mundell Snr embraced his homosexuality sooner, he would have split up from his wife sooner and would not have fathered Mundell Jnr, the butt of this joke.

WoS is not saying gay people can't be parents, he's not saying they can't father children, he's saying this particular person would not have been conceived.

That's the whole point of the tweet and why it was mean-spirited. Wishing someone had never been born just because they are deathly dull is hyperbole of course. I've seen points like this made in other debates. I don't like it. I don't find the joke funny. I am saying however that what is being expressed here is not homophobia but extreme Toryphobia as well as Mundellphobia.

BlackForestCake · 26/03/2019 01:07

Why does he call himself "Reverend"? Which church ordained him?

It's a nickname. Are people still allowed to have nicknames?

LassOfFyvie · 26/03/2019 01:19

Yes I get the point he is saying that if Mundell had split from his wife sooner there would have been no son.

But the "joke" is still predicated on the assumption that Mundell Snr, as a homosexual man, would not have fathered a child. It is not the same as he said of Katie Hopkins that she wished she had never been born. (Which is also nasty in a different way)

PencilsInSpace · 26/03/2019 01:24

He doesn't have to be on our side to make important case law.

I didn't ask what you don't find funny Lass, I was genuinely wondering if there's anything at all you do find funny. Anything at all.

It just struck me that I've seen you lots of times on threads saying you don't find something funny and I've never seen you laughing at anything. I'm genuinely curious and not asking to be goady.

Obviously I'm not laughing at the phrase 'wank hole' per se, I'm laughing at the thought of a bunch of very learned and well spoken barristers discussing the exact meaning of 'wank hole' in a court of law. It kind of spoils it if you have to explain it but do you have no appreciation of the absurdity of this?

HirplesWithHaggis · 26/03/2019 01:42

If Mundell had come out sooner, would there have been a Mrs Mundell at all?

LassOfFyvie · 26/03/2019 01:46

It's a nickname. Are people still allowed to have nicknames?

Is it a nickname? I'm curious about it. From an interview with him in The Herald.

One remaining mystery is Campbell's use of the word "Rev" before his name

He does not have a university qualification, but he says he became a reverend in the 1990s

Or another explanation.
As for the religious title, the 46-year-old claims he was once trained for church orders but is sketchy about the details, saying he does not want to bring religion into the independence debate.

I'm laughing at the thought of a bunch of very learned and well spoken barristers

There weren't barristers in that court- well spoken or otherwise. The Scottish term is advocate. Neither of the QCs are English qualified.

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