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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Letter to Mariella Frostrup in The Guardian

20 replies

Ameanstreakamilewide · 24/03/2019 07:12

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/mar/24/my-wife-and-i-dont-have-sex-and-i-have-been-buying-womens-clothes?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

This made me feel very uneasy. One of the people who left a comment underneath (wellfitbooty), made a lengthy post; obviously from personal experience.

He writes.

Good advice.
However the odds are that his wife will more likely not be sympathetic to the news.
This is based on my knowledge of a great number - hundreds - of closeted crossdressers living with spouses. In fact it's a rarity to find a wife who does immediately accept the notion.
Most wives react the same way: this is not the man I married, not what I signed up for. And who can dispute that?
Many instantly assume that their husband/partner is secretly gay, which is also rarely the case.
The urge to crossdress is a complicated thing. Many of us only realise (or admit) the urge in later life, though once we do admit it and think back on our lives, the telltale signs are normally there, often from earliest memory. The feel of a mother's clothing; the swish of certain fabrics; the pretty colours and styles, in comparison to the drab offerings in men's departments.
We live in an odd time, where men are constantly being reminded that they should embrace feminist qualities; be less obnoxiously male; yet within the vast majority of marriages, signs of developing femininity in a husband (or a son) are viewed as deeply threatening, even repulsive, to many women.
This is not mere prejudice on my part - these are the facts, displayed in case after case.
For many crossdressers the best they can hope for is a DADT (don't ask, don't tell) relationship, with clothing and make up kept well out of sight, and no possibility of emerging into the light. For many this works, as the alternative is the destruction of the marriage, but it means that all over the world there are men living lives of frustration and misery; constantly feeling judged, scorned, rejected.
One emotion comes up again and again, when crossdressers talk about their feelings, and that is that putting on women's clothes and acting in a feminine way, brings comfort. It soothes. It just feels right. We don't know why - and many wish they didn't feel it, since it complicates life terribly - but it just does.
i too find the company of most men limited and boring. I loathe the leering at women, the bragging, the limited range of conversation, the crude physical ways, of many men repulsive. I hate pubs and other trad male hangouts. I would far rather talk about clothes, fabrics, art, interior design...yet I have spent much of my life wearing jeans and plaid shirts, and I've made my living as a builder.
A surprising number of crossdressers are or have been in the military, that bastion of ultra maleness. Many had fathers who beat into them trad male values, and mothers who backed up and affirmed the message: to be effeminate is abhorrent, perverted. Girls wear pink, boys get muddy.
I hope the writer finds acceptance from his wife, but frankly the chances are not good. I recommend he looks at a site called crossdressers.com, which has thousands of members and all the advice he needs to deal with his feelings on the matter. This is not a pick-up site, it's a support forum, and I have found it extremely helpful. There are others, but this site is far and away the best.
You'll note I use the pronoun he. Perhaps she would be more appropriate, but these are early days and he/she has much to learn.
I wish him/her the best of luck with what is likely to be a difficult journey. One other thing I've learned is that trying to suppress and deny the urges are futile, even dangerous.
Don't be afraid.

I appreciate wellfitbooty is giving advice specifically to the letter writer, but I must confess that (rightly or wrongly) nearly all my sympathy was reserved for his wife.

OP posts:
CarlGrimesMissingEye · 24/03/2019 07:20

I have no issue with men wearing what are typically considered female clothes etc. But why this man can't see that the problem isn't the clothes, it's the lying within a marriage. You make a contract of trust with the person you enter a relationship. A lie of this magnitude would just leave me wondering what else they could lie about. If I went into a relationship knowing about it that would be different.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 24/03/2019 07:29

You'll note I use the pronoun he. Perhaps she would be more appropriate, but these are early days and he/she has much to learn.

This is the problem, too. Liking colourful clothes and talking about interior design doesn't make a man 'she'.

Women face real danger and real prejudice in this world because of our biology, not our love of dresses. Men need to stop using our words to describe themselves so we can continue to talk about our issues.

Ameanstreakamilewide · 24/03/2019 07:41

@Zutt,

Indeed. If the letter writer suddenly drops the female pronoun bomb on his wife...he's being extremely selfish.

OP posts:
Knicknackpaddyflak · 24/03/2019 07:51

Hmm. Totally skirting around the porn addiction, sexual arousal involved in cross dressing and the self obsession and the 'cissification' re enactment stuff where a 'woman' is suppposed to be submissive, humiliated and objectified. That's a very nice, sanitised version that nicely puts the blame on women. Again.

DpWm · 24/03/2019 08:04

MF replies-
Right now, you’re existing with so much of who you really are shrouded in secrecy and your most compelling impulses hidden from the world

Well, idk they don't say in the letter whether there's a strong sexual urge behind their "compelling impulse" but seeing as he and his wife haven't had sex in 15 years I can only assume that's where his has gone. And if that's what it's about should this really be shared with the whole world?

MF uses the term "transvestite" which is an important word here, seeing as I'm sure she's fully aware of the Guardian's line on all things "trans". If he finds his "online community" as advised by MF they'll likely be pushing this man to "live as a woman" and then we'll all have to call him "she" and play pretend too... Happy days.

DpWm · 24/03/2019 08:06

knicknack
Put it a bit more directly...
All that is just not mentioned at all.

0ttoline · 24/03/2019 08:08

What a weird response from Mariella to a guy saying he's almost always alone, has no friends and has been depressed. Why not focus on your cross dressing habit, and turn your life upside down to accommodate it? He also said he likes concerts and art exhibitions... Join a fucking club and make some friends!

Plus, he said he likes poetry too. Is it a 'life half lived' if he doesn't quit his job and become a full time poet?

nauticant · 24/03/2019 09:11

You can always count on Mariella to uphold the patriarchy.

TimeLady · 24/03/2019 09:15

Someone should direct Mariella to the transwidows' threads

cattycattycat · 24/03/2019 09:21

Join a fucking club and make some friends!

This!

Also, why is his marriage sexless - he and his wife might be fine with that or she might really prefer to be with someone else.

HorsewithnoBackstop · 24/03/2019 09:24

I liked therebythegrace's reply in the comments.

Ameanstreakamilewide · 24/03/2019 09:52

From jacintavega


Jacintavega
2h ago
I am the wife in a situation which started similar to the one described here, and ended in a full blown transition, with my husband now living full time as a woman. We had years when I knew about my husbands feelings and was relatively understanding and supportive (we went out - with him dressed- to restaurants, theatres etc., plus he went out with friends). We have a school-age child. Last year my husband decided it was not enough, started taking hormones etc...my point here is that occasional crossdressing is one thing, but it might lead to the person in question realizing they want and need a lot more, but whether that brings ultimate happiness I am not quite sure. However, it does destroy the relationships around them since the whole process requires so much self-absorption and self-obsession, and there are so many lies, deception and hurt involved....So I would advise caution because while gaining much, one can also lose so much of what one has taken for granted up to this point. On the other hand, from the letter it seems there are no young or teenage children involved, so obviously that makes the whole thing easier. And you never know, the wife might be more understanding than the man expects, might even be less surprised than he thinks. Good luck to everyone involved.

OP posts:
BadPennyNoBiscuit · 24/03/2019 09:58

We live in an odd time, where men are constantly being reminded that they should embrace feminist qualities; be less obnoxiously male; yet within the vast majority of marriages, signs of developing femininity in a husband (or a son) are viewed as deeply threatening, even repulsive, to many women.

What an odd comment. Being repulsed by the worst aspects of faux 'masculinity' doesn't mean women will become attracted to men performing a parody of femininity.
Both extremes are an act. I'm repulsed as much by the acting as the behaviours.

OrchidInTheSun · 24/03/2019 11:00

This is an old but eye-opening article about AGP from a woman who used to work on a sex line.

culturallyboundgender.wordpress.com/2013/04/27/but-theres-no-such-thing-as-autogynephilia-phone-sex-the-male-gaze-and-how-blanchard-and-trans-activists-both-get-it-wrong/

barelove · 24/03/2019 11:38

So much of adulthood is informed by our childhood. How many of these crossdressers were shamed by their caregivers as children when they went through the completely normal thing of enjoying wearing nice colours and fabrics (stupidly reserved for females only in our culture).

I've worked in nurseries and playgroups where the 'princess' outfits were fought over by the boys as much as the girls. Year after year the top favourite colours of both sexes was pink, purple and silver. My experience of seeing these kids grow up is that boys who are simply and with no fuss, allowed to wear what they like as kids, eventually grow out of it and choose to wear our cultures accepted 'boy' clothes.

My suspicion is that the young boys who would take the taffeta ballgown to try on in the loos, so that they wouldn't be seen by their classmates, were the ones who had been shamed for their explorations (by their caregivers) and were already developing a perverted relationship between this shame and their enjoyment of the outfits.

If kids of both sexes were allowed to explore this world with all their senses, including wearing whatever fabrics, styles and colours that they wanted, whenever they wanted, then when they were ready I believe the vast majority of them would end up choosing to conform to whatever the majority of their sex were wearing. I'd put money on the chances that blokes who are drawn to wear frocks and make up just weren't allowed to explore these options fully when they really wanted to as kids.

HoldMeCloserTonyDanza · 24/03/2019 12:16

I read the article and comments with my jaw on the floor. I knew I had to come here for some sanity.

Post after post, genuinely hundreds of people, falling over themselves to pat themselves on the back about how fucking sensitive and woke they are. And not a single one giving a single shit about that poor wife. Oh, a couple threw a line of sympathy her way. But it’s like she’s not even human.

The world just hates women. Especially middle aged women.

This low-level dehumanisation honestly makes me feel worse, somehow, than some of the big-ticket violence stuff.

How will we ever solve the bigger problems when nobody gives a shit about women like this?

pearlkent · 24/03/2019 12:50

I always wondered what qualifies Mariella as an "agony aunt". I can't stand reading any celebrity's "life advice".

FermatsTheorem · 24/03/2019 13:10

Post after post, genuinely hundreds of people, falling over themselves to pat themselves on the back about how fucking sensitive and woke they are. And not a single one giving a single shit about that poor wife. Oh, a couple threw a line of sympathy her way. But it’s like she’s not even human.

So depressing. But you see it over and over again, not just with agony aunt (or uncle) columns, but with discussions on here. Any sort of mismatch in sexual desires (be it level of drive, or taste in individual sex acts, or in this case, putting up with your partner donning a frilly frock when you find it a total turn-off), the message to women over and over again is "you have no right to boundaries."

Don't want sex as often as him? The advice always seems to be "get yourself in the mood with a sensual bubble bath and some erotica", not "tell him to compromise on having sex less often than he'd like."

Don't want to try anal/ choking/ BDSM? The advice always seems to be "you don't know till you've tried it, use plenty of lube", not "actually you're allowed to say NO simply on the basis that you don't fancy the idea."

Thinking about it, "sex advice columns" are an offshoot of the porn/prostitution industry, an industry devoted to helping men get their rocks off no matter what the cost to women and girls.

barelove · 24/03/2019 15:56

Yeah and when he said they’d not had sex in 15 years the response was like ‘basically your relationship is not worth saving then. Go and explore what YOU want. Your wife is obviously not worth giving a second thought to’. Why didn’t he get asked questions that involved his wife? Like ‘you’ve not had sex in 15 years, hows your wife with that?’ Grrrr

theOtherPamAyres · 24/03/2019 19:31

This is the sort of frank, honest account of what it means to come under the trans umbrella.

Cross dressers and transvestites are transwomen and the government is trying to force us to accept them as women. The Maria Miller Committee didn't give any room for discussion of this phenomenon in heterosexual married men - we were expected to shut up and allow them into our spaces and services.

Women should not have to lose their rights for the the mental health benefit of these men. When will the conversation on the Trans Umbrella start, if ever?

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