I'm in danger of alienating people with my outrage in discussions. Any tips?

[floppyflappy]

I need to be able to talk with people in a way that encourages engagement with the material, rather than screams of 'BIGOT!!' at me.

What are your best questions or talking points to achieve this? For example, I've seen here that a good starting point is always, 'what is the definition of a woman?'

I particularly want to be able to talk with my lib fem friends who I know are just trying to be nice and supportive of everyone.

Don't bother posting full stop, especially if you know your going to go on a rant. I myself have had to step back on some posts and not bother posting for the same reason. At the end of the day it's just a forum and does not enhance my life one way or another if I get my POV across or not.

So glad I found this thread, so useful, will definitely use some of the suggestions here.

I'm have used shock tactics which has opened the eyes of some but also not been very effective with others. I'm quite blunt by nature and call it like it is online (got blocked, deleted twitter account) but try to be a bit more diplomatic in RL and often fail as its genuinely not my preferred approach.

This made made me think whether the sort of sensationalist stories like the Challenors and Stephen Wood/Karen White are the way to go.

Thanks OP, you've made me think, I get blinded by The Rage and sound like a mad conspiracy theorist who has taken feminism like battle armour and I love a good fight...I mean debate...

Very helpful advice on this thread.

Thank you.

I wanted to say that I think it's not just that others don't want to be wrong. It's that they will not want to believe you. I genuinely didn't want to believe things could be that bad. I mean, how could this really be happening? Surely people still had common sense? Why was nobody stepping in or saying anything except a handful of outrageously brave women?

I think many people just DO NOT want you to be correct.

Maybe they're living with a lot of cognitive dissonance:

However, what happens when we have two beliefs that are contradictory to each other? How about when you get information that is totally opposite to what you have been taught?
In order for our brains to make sense of contradictory information, we usually do one of the following:
1. Choose to ignore the new conflicting information;
2. Commit even further to our beliefs;
3. Avoid exposure to contradictory information;
4. Project our feelings of overwhelm on to others;
5. Absorb the contradictory information and change our existing beliefs;
6. Accept the contradictory information as it is and accept holding two different beliefs.
www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/here-there-and-everywhere/201709/cognitive-dissonance

In the short term for that person, it may be psychologically easier to live in ignorance of this issue (or minimize its importance) and believe they are doing the "progressive thing," than it is to accept that this systematic attack on women and their sex-based rights is really going on.

I find the erasure and stigmatisation of same-sex attraction, the permanency of what is being done to children, and the very visible unfairness in sport can cut through sometimes even with people who don’t care about women’s rights.

"Most transwomen are lovely and no danger to anyone

This frankly isn't true - from the goals and methods of the trans movement we can see that most men who call themselves 'transwomen' are, at worst, terrifying misogynists or, at best, indifferent to women's safety and humanity if it gets in the way of their wants. That's not 'lovely' - why should women sugarcoat this behaviour and lie on their behalf?

I would say that the most important thing in putting forward an effective argument against gender identity ideology is to not use the framing and language of trans activists.

Unfortunately, too many feminists reflexively adopt this language and framing, either because they haven't thought about it deeply, or because they believe that signalling submissiveness via use of the 'correct' language or disclaimers ('most transwomen are lovely!') will make people more receptive to their arguments. Because a woman using plain language and asserting firm boundaries will be seen as aggressive, impolite, unfeminine. When in fact using plain language and drawing firm boundaries are the only way to cut through the cognitive distortions and doublethink that rule in this debate.

So, for instance, don't talk about 'women and transwomen'. Talk instead about sex and gender identity - how they aren't the same thing, and we still need laws and language to recognise the reality of sex. Never use the word 'transwomen' at all - its a meaningless category that just confuses people, given that a 'transwoman' is literally any man who identifies as such. Most people think it means 'transsexual' and they also have this bizarre idea that feminine-presenting men are extremely vulnerable and oppressed, and therefore not only no danger to women, but in more danger than women. It isn't true, but that's what people think when they hear the word 'transwoman'. Most people will prioritise these supposedly super-vulnerable men over women, so don't use this word, or you will have lost the argument already.

Instead, use language that makes clear what is actually being pushed, eg., 'men who ID as women', 'male individuals', or just men. This reminds everyone of the reality of sexed bodies and why we need sex-specific spaces and services in the first place.

Don't go on the back foot when TRAs storm in and accuse you of hatred, bigotry and literally killing people - just point out that this is hyperbole and untrue, that you believe in everyone's humanity, but that sex is a material reality that needs to be accounted for in law and policy. Keep pointing out that sex and gender aren't the same thing and that 'gender' means 'sex roles'. Ask why they are trying to promote sex-role stereotypes ('gender') as the basis for what men and women and boys and girls are.

Note that plain, firm language does not have to equal being snarky or angry. Of course it's only natural to be angry at what's happening, and perfectly reasonable for women to be snarky to men (and women) who are promoting such grotesque sexism, but calm arguments do tend to win the day. My point is that it's possible to be calm and polite WITHOUT giving ground on language or women's rights.

Joan McAlpine is a fantastic role model for this. I am so impressed by not only her calmness in the face of TRA attack, but the clarity of her language and the way she reframes the debate. She keeps bringing it back to the simple point that sex and gender identity are two different things that must not be conflated. It's really worth studying her twitter threads and seeing how she cuts through the spurious arguments and emotional blackmail with calm, clear language and facts. Notice also that not once does she use the term 'transwomen'. She sticks exclusively to the language of sex, which is what makes her arguments so clear and persuasive.

Eg. twitter.com/joanmcalpine/status/1101251118611525633?lang=en

twitter.com/JoanMcAlpine/status/1105945838218592264

twitter.com/JoanMcAlpine/status/1109015164064591872

I know the feeling op,!

Going in with sympathy for the trans can help
Are they aware that transpeple have died because they were treated according to identity not sex?
Why should people be meducalised? Are they aware that the Tavistock clinic has concerns? Surely we need better ways to help people than drugs and surgery?
I haven’t had the trump one, but I could say i disagree with trump as he seems to vilify trans people which I disagree with

I tend to focus on the 'it's not the transgender people who are a threat, it's the people who SAY they are just to get access to vulnerable females'

Tends to open up a bit as they are allowed to keep the image of the lovely India or Munroe as a 'passing' victim just trying to live their life yet still introduces the huge risks and flaws in the argument.

Then of course you can introduce the idea that some transgender people are a threat in eg sport and also chuck in some stuff about Karen White.

One of them even came out with the classic "men get raped too" when I mentioned sexual assault

Ah that old chestnut. I usually try and along the line of
"Yes and obviously very traumatic and awful for any man, in fact there should be better support services for male victims, however female victims rape can fall pregnant so the level of risk is not equal. Unwanted pregnancies lead to a whole other level of risk"

Then there's women can rape other women too
Correct them on the language, no it's sexual assault if a woman is the perp, the only women who can rape are the type with a penis this is why we need clear language when we're discussing the 2 sexes.

Sounds like you had an awful experience with that conversation pearlkent I wouldn't have kept my cool...

I've just had two successes in changing people's minds. It's been about 6 months of posting on FB. I had conversations with one of them quite a lot before then, which got nowhere because she just thought I was mistaken.

Gender doesn't exist - or shouldn't, right?
I never argue this. Ever. Because there is no argument. I say I couldn't care less if a man wears a dress and/or makeup, good for him. Women couldn't wear trousers 100 years ago. So people should be free to look however they want (I think that too btw), but I'm no more a man for wearing trousers than a man changes his sex by wearing a dress.

Trans umbrella
I make sure to reference the Stonewall "trans umbrella" which specifically includes "cross dressers" and point out that gender dysphoria, an official diagnosis, must be very painful condition to live with, but that's not a "cross dresser". I point out that every time trans is discussed this very large group is discussed and you're not allowed to separate them out. Also point out that people formerly called transsexuals should be top of the pile in the trans movement, especially ones who had full surgery 10+ years ago. This ALWAYS gets agreement. Then I tell them they're not. They're called transphobic by trans activists because many of them don't agree with self-ID.

No long-term studies on puberty blockers and cross sex hormones and adults vs children
Again, gender dysphoria, the diagnosed condition, must be a horrific condition to live with (I do think that). Not every trans person has gender dysphoria and many consider it transphobic to even say it exists. (I've never had anybody think that sentence makes sense - back to the "umbrella"!). But there are no long term clinical trials of puberty blockers on children. They're not a pause button. What happens to brain development through hormones when the hormones have been stopped? Cross-sex hormones are the same. So the clinical trial is an entirely uncontrolled observational experiment that's not being properly observed on children who are already vulnerable (apparently they'll all commit suicide if they don't take them, right?).

Girls and ASD
How could it be that there's such a relatively high rate of teenage girls on the autism spectrum reporting to be male at a time in their life when a) their body is going through massive changes and b) the way they are viewed by the outside world changes as a result of the physical changes, bearing in mind people with ASD like change far less that the rest of us, in general (on both sides)? I say I find it odd. I don't have the answer. I'd like there to be more research.

Myself
If I were a teen today, with my worth being determined by Instagram photos and the porn my male friends were watching, I'd want to be a boy too. I'm quite serious. I wouldn't understand I was rejecting that, I'd just feel that that's what a woman is and I'm not one of those. With the trans ideology around, I'd definitely have then "realised I'm male".

Lesbians
This I find is very quick for most people to get. I start with lesbians are lesbians, everybody know that. Agreed. Now lesbians have to sleep with female penises or they're transphobic. Huh? Stonewall's trans umbrella. But Stonewall supports lesbians. Well, yes, if they don't object to having sexual relations with trans women, who are women, who have a penis that is female, because it's not on a man. And Stonewall actively does not support women who do not agree to that as they've demonstrated by not allowing them to march in Pride.

Stonewall
Mention the organisation at every opportunity (in a discussion). Everybody has heard of it. Everybody woke loves it. When it comes to trans issues most people have absolutely no idea about its "umbrella". They think trans people are asexual teenagers or adults so harmed by years of gender dysphoria they're extremely vulnerable and both cases need to be protected. The "trans umbrella" isn't listened to. Put Stonewall in there and people pay attention.

Sowing seeds
I aim to sew seeds. I don't set out to try to convince anybody. The idea is that the next time they hear something that ties in with what I said, they remember something. I'm in it for the long game.

I don't care if they don't agree. Biological sex cannot be changed. Gender and its stereotyping is harmful to everyone. These are facts.

(Had two successes this week, not only two successes!)

I'm afraid to start any such conversation, as I know that any non-GC views expressed would leave me with the impression that the person I was talking to was pretty thick. I mean, it's so bloody obvious that humans can't change sex.

As an ex teacher I quickly reverted to Socratic Questions... sounds complicated but easy to do. You just ask a question back... no matter how the other person starts a conversation yu just ask a question. Once you get the hang of it you can lead them anywhere

www.umich.edu/~elements/probsolv/strategy/cthinking.htm

I always stick to examples that are local which hit home the most by showing actual outcomes on people rather than the theoretical harms.

The “women’s” swimming session at our pool now allows men and so there’s no longer any sessions where Muslim women and Orthodox Jewish women can swim. Why did we have these sessions in the first place? To enable those women to use the facilities. All ruined now for them because of (just two I believe) men.

Our local Primark has switched to mixed sex changing rooms despite hitting the news a few years back with sex offenders sneaking in to film young girls - now they’ll have a right to be there.

I really struggle with this. I often see people on here frame these debates as if religious people are all uniformly opposed to the things that are happening at the moment including the trans stuff, sexualisation of children etc. This quite simply isn't the case - if anything I find most Christians resolutely determined to ignore what is happening. For instance, a Belgian cardinal, very powerful in the Catholic Church, has just died and the Catholic press has lauded him as a great moral force for our times. This man promoted sex education for young children in Catholic schools which showed a line drawing of a baby girl with the caption in Flemish "I love having my pussy stroked" and "I like to be in the room when my mum and dad have sex". When the parents found out they marched on his residence and then when they couldn't get access to him they began to march on the residence of the Papal representative in Belgium. He called the police and they water cannoned the parents! This man also covered up the very serious sexual abuse of a young man by his uncle amongst many other dodgy activities and yet was resolutely promoted. People just do not want to hear about these things. I think that it causes people too much internal conflict - like another thread on here highlights, it is a threat to their mental health and their very view of reality. I think they feel that they must protect themselves at all costs and the easiest way to do this is to pretend it isn't happening - this is especially dissonant for Christians because we are supposed to love everybody!

Print or save onto you phone, a picture of Karen White.

Pass it around the group.

Ask any of them to explain what it is about this man that makes them or would make them believe he is a woman, as the criminal justice system put him in a woman's prison.

Because if TWAW, then that means any man can say he is a woman and you all have to take his word for it.

Here is the image for you

CuriousaboutSamphire that's an awesome link! Thanks!

I really do think everyone should stop focusing on individual words of theirs changing the minds of individual others in individual conversations.

It doesn't work like this.

Every time somebody changes their mind - about any hot topic issue, not just this one - it is not because of a single conversation or even a series of conversations with a friend or colleague. It's a culmination - usually something has happened that jerks them out of their conviction, and then they think back to the things that were said that they disagreed with at the time and see them in a new light.

You see it all the time: I used to think so-and-so was being harsh when she said this but since X happened, I now see she was right - this, or versions of it, are what people tell you.

The best thing to do is just state your views clearly and directly. Don't compromise them for a hearing. Don't pussyfoot around with caveats and prevarications. And, even if you get a chorus of outrage in return, trust that something will happen in the future to make the outragees come back to what you have said and see that you were right.

PS: The thing that happens and changes someone's mind will be different for everyone. It might be something important to someone else that would never have occurred to you. Just state your views. With clarity. And trust. The thing that happens will happen.

I am centering my discussion around the protection of women's sex-based rights. Men cannot become women. Feminism came about for very good reason, and we mustn't become complacent about those hard-won rights.

By the way - where are the incidents of transmen (ie women who identify as men) wreaking havoc and threatening to kill women who speak up against the trans cult? Men are responsible for male violence and mysogyny, and a man in a dress is still a man.