Men/women and children

[Bottledate]

This is a bit of a ramble really, but I'm writing as a pretty much GC woman trying to raise a daughter who can understand the important differences between men and women without imposing societal stereotypes...we've already dealt with 'only men are doctors, women are nurses' in roleplay.

Three year old daughter stated (after seeing a lesbian wedding on telly) that 'a wedding has to have a boy and a girl'. I corrected her on this point, but am intrigued about her a) having gained this viewpoint at all and b) what it was about the 'groom' (pretty woman dressed in suit) that made her clock she wasn't a man.

We've taught her that boys have penises and girls have vulvas and breasts (therefore only women can have babies and breastfeed). With the current absurdity surrounding 'gender identity', I'm not sure what the 'correct' approach is to identifying whether someone is a man or a woman. If she sees a 'woman' who's obviously a man, I'm not sure how to explain it in a way that makes sense? I want to respect a man's right to dress as he wishes whilst keeping DD aware that there is still a man's body underneath. I equally don't want to have a loud conversation on the bus about 'that man wearing a dress' because it seems ever more likely that the man in question would object to that description. Tips??

I have similar concerns OP. My 3 yo DS is naturally inquisitive and provides constant commentary. Thankfully he didn't notice the man dressed as a woman in the post office the other day but I couldn't get out of there fast enough.

I'm inclined to be honest and I don't want to feed into the lie and confuse my son but I'm going to try to be kind about it and say 'he must like wearing a dress' or something like that. (The transwoman in the post office had long hair and a put on high pitched voice but otherwise was in a hoodie and boots do not in stereotypical female clothing. )

It will be difficult and uncomfortable but I'm not going to validate someone else's identity by lying to my son.

Bottledate watching this with interest and waiting for some articulate women to come along.
what it was about the 'groom' (pretty woman dressed in suit) that made her clock she wasn't a man.

I have a just turned 2 year old and it amazes me how she identifes men and women. I'm gnc, my partner has long hair as do my brothers,most of my friends are gnc also. My daughter is in a phase now of pointing out boys and girls when we are out, and mamas and dadas are women and men. It's intriguing.

** Maybe a breezy 'people can wear what they want' (or maybe 'grownups can wear what they want' if you've got a coat refusenik or the like)

I equally don't want to have a loud conversation on the bus about 'that man wearing a dress'

You probably don't want a loud conversation on a bus about any aspect of a strangers appearance (other than straightforwardly complimentary) so maybe try a preemptive chat about good manners, but add that they can always ask you in private if they see anything that puzzles them or they want to know more about. That kind of thing?

Sorry, bolding balls-up there.

Thankfully he didn't notice the man dressed as a woman in the post office the other day but I couldn't get out of there fast enough

What did you think was going to happen in a Post Office queue? So what if your son had noticed. All he would notice is someone dressed a bit (well maybe quite a lot) differently from the men he knows.

I'm inclined to be honest and I don't want to feed into the lie and confuse my son but I'm going to try to be kind about it and say 'he must like wearing a dress' or something like that. (The transwoman in the post office had long hair and a put on high pitched voice but otherwise was in a hoodie and boots do not in stereotypical female clothing)

It will be difficult and uncomfortable but I'm not going to validate someone else's identity by lying to my son

I'm really not sure you need to make any comments about what the person in front of you in the Post Office queue was wearing.

What did you think was going to happen in a Post Office queue?

The 'constant commentary' of an inquisitive 3 yo!

Just stick to biology. Men have willies and women have wombs, it's nothing to do with clothes or hair or hobbies.

My DDs are 9 and 10 and we're getting bloody CBBC and their trans agenda (not to mention the police coming into school and talking about hate crime and Caitlin Jenner ) so I've had much more explicit discussions about how if we could change the DNA in every cell in your body then it would be put to a damn sight more use than letting people pretend they were a different sex.

I know it's a random aside but a couple of years ago I accompanied DD2 to a junior citizen scheme where some random council (??) workers warned them about the dangers of the internet. The site they told them to stay off? Wikipedia. They warned Year 6s about Wikipedia.
I mean you might want to double check wiki sources but from a child safety point of view!!! Lol. That's the same level of bullshit as telling them about Jenner.

so maybe try a preemptive chat about good manners, but add that they can always ask you in private if they see anything that puzzles them

If only it were that easy! I'll just end up in and endless 'why' conversation. We've had the public 'that lady's brown'/'why is that person in a wheelchair' conversations and generally I'm not actually embarrassed to discuss differences and hope that the people being talked about would be happy with my explanations. This just seems SO much more emperor's new clothes.

@CountFosco We have stuck to biology, that's why I'm a bit clueless now: I feel like there are too many untruths becoming mainstream to easily ignore or explain without stirring up trouble. m

@Blueblueyellow It is fascinating, isn't it?

I think I was worried about misgendering someone indirectly through my child which is ridiculous isn't it? I don't want to upset people but I'm usually not scared of calling a spade a spade so to speak but all this trans stuff is very confusing.

I suppose I was worried about the reaction and there being some kind of argument in my local post office.

The transwoman wasn't wearing a dress but a hoodie and heeled boots and I had to take a second look so a 3 year old could have missed it but they are usually observant, talkative and uninhibited by nature aren't they so I'm sure one day it will happen and I'll have to think of something!

I reinforce that it's not kind to talk about anyone's appearance. This is obviously not foolproof: "I'm not saying what they look like, I'm saying they smell very bad!"

I do live in a "very progressive," area, so they see and know trans people, including classmates. I'm not sure they really see my description of "a man who wants to be a woman," as hugely different than wanting to be spiderman today, but as long as they aren't mean about someone, that's enough for now.

If they are old enough to understand you don't point out very fat people, then this isn't that different. They don't need to point out A is really a girl, anymore than they need to point out that B has sticky out ears.

Just my two cents but if someone makes a scene in a post office because of something said by a three year old, then they're being inappropriately aggressive. I'd hope that most people would be more reasonable than that.

Just say 'kids, eh' and be done with it.

It will be difficult and uncomfortable but I'm not going to validate someone else's identity by lying to my son.

Agreed.

I believe that one of the ways even tiny children can tell male/female is to do with pelvic angle? and the way people walk?
So at an explanation level, you can say that a lot of things about mens and women's bodies are different including the boobies (or beeboos as my DD used to say) and willies (or insert technical term here, yes we do use them in our house).

I'm not sure they really see my description of "a man who wants to be a woman," as hugely different than wanting to be spiderman today,

I'd say that was fairly accurate, and I'm prepared to argue the toss in public too. I've already said this to one of my DCs about their peer.

It will be difficult and uncomfortable but I'm not going to validate someone else's identity by lying to my son.

Well put. I am not lying in order to validate anyone's delusions.

One of my kids had some kind of radar and would say to me "look mummy, it's a man!" and point out any man dressed as a woman. There was one who used our local co-op. Terrible wig and massive hands. So she learned herself that some men like to dress up as women and that polite people don't point it out.

Our gay friends (gay men and lesbians) were just normal because the kids had always known them. However my sister and her DH had no gay friends so their kids acted up and behaved stupidly in front of our friends. Which was kind of ironic as their son was clearly gay and cross-dressing from the age of 4. They were in total denial about his gayness.

Kids are fast learners, and often much smarter than we give them credit for.