Brain scans show differences in trans youth?

[BlessThisMess]

My ROGD 14yo DD has told me that being transgender has been scientifically proven. When questioned, she sent me the following link: www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm

Any thoughts about this? Critical analysis? All I'd heard before were claims that male and female brains are the same. I'd like to be able to gently critique this article with my DD as I am trying to get her to question her thoughts and beliefs about being trans.

xposts with loads of other people!

Which has never been proven to be nature / nuture / combo

Indeed, my impression was that several studies, both sociological and scientific, point to it being mostly or all nurture.

But even if there is a tiny biology based correlation between reverse parking and having a cock that does not make one the other.

No-one is looking for brain differences in the other protected characteristics, are they?

No but there was a really interesting bit on radio 4 recently about the impact on brains of learning 2 languages or more, and at any age. They could identify changes in brain scans after a second language was learnt at any age and also found it protected against / delayed ageing dementia by a few years.

We spend so much time looking for these tiny gendered differences when there really could be all sorts of other things going on.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5953012/

This seems to be a pretty thorough assessment of the material, and includes a discussion of Bakker's work. The overall conclusion seems to be that various investigations have produced generally inconsistent and often contradictory results. The thesis put forwards is that it is -behaviours- that mould brains.

Also, Bakker's work apparently shows no difference in brown matter between adolescent girls identifying as boys compared to their female peers, only in boys identifying as girls compared to their male peers. Although Bakker finds a difference in white matter in the girls, this has not been found in other studies investigating the same thing.

At least, that's what I got from a five minute scan.

Also - the young people in Bakker's trial were all on puberty blockers...

"Participants in the current study, however, were not exposed to endogenous sex hormones at the time of measurement, but were receiving GnRHa to suppress pubertal development."

.. so we are hardly comparing them in their original state.

This is also interesting:

"The IQ scores of both the boys and the girls with GD were significantly lower than those of the control groups."

No-one's reporting that quite so merrily, are they?

Bakker found very little difference between the GD and non GD girls, however, the difference was more marked in the boys. She also notes "The boys with GD were significantly younger and less physically mature (lower Tanner stages) compared with the three other groups." but does not question whether this was the reason they had less distinctive "male" markers.

Oh, we're only talking 40 adolescents total here, as well.

And this is the author's conclusion on her findings:

"In conclusion, we found that boys with GD overall showed neither a typically male – nor female pattern of white matter microstructure, whereas girls with GD predominantly had sex-typical white matter diffusion characteristics with only slight masculinization in fiber organization. Our findings provide new preliminary evidence for the hypothesis that natal boys with GD may have undergone atypical neuronal sexual differentiation and possess certain neurobiological
characteristics of their experienced gender."

I read an interesting article once about the brains of mothers after child birth; quite major restructuring that was in effect for a couple of years. Interestingly, partners (mostly men) who had a high level of care involvement with the baby also showed similar brain changes, the more care giving involvement, the more changes. Not quite as much as the mothers but a significant change.

This is all so complex with so many variables. But the main thing is that brains are plastic.

As Lang said, they didn’t control for homosexuality.

In addition, they didn’t control for comorbid problems, such as depression. There was some suggestion made that some pf the changes resembled those seen with certain MH problems.

And I’ve seen it suggested that gender dysphoria might be related to excessive rumination, which would also change brain structure.

But to tackle this from a different angle, perhaps what we are seeing are the brains of effeminate boys and tomboyish girls. All that would mean is that there is more variation in male and female brains and behaviour patterns than we have previously acknowleged. A brain in a boy’s body is still, unequivocally, a boy’s brain.

What everyone has said already.

The point is that female and male are reproductive categories. Sex determines who is a man or woman, not culturally coded "gendered" personality traits or behaviour. Your brain can't be in the "wrong body" anymore than you liver can.

What a brain scan shows means absolutely fuck all to the organs of the reproductive system.

Remember the research on brain scans of London taxi drivers, which changed after they passed the Knowledge? I like it, because it reminds us of how the environment affects the appearance of the brain. Frankly, the idea of a "taxi driver brain" makes more sense than a "brain sex," given the cultural influences/oppressive nature of gender, confounding variables like mental health issues, sexual orientation, etc.

We found that compared with bus drivers, taxi drivers had greater gray matter volume in mid-posterior hippocampi and less volume in anterior hippocampi.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17024677

With the new research, scientists can definitively say that London taxi drivers not only have larger-than-average memory centers in their brains, but also that their intensive training is responsible for the growth.
www.scientificamerican.com/article/london-taxi-memory/

If the argument is that brain scans are what determine completely unrelated factors, does that mean we should now determine who is a taxi driver based on their MRI? Or can we keep going by things like driver's and taxi licenses before we step in a cab?

I read an interesting article once about the brains of mothers after child birth; quite major restructuring that was in effect for a couple of years. Interestingly, partners (mostly men) who had a high level of care involvement with the baby also showed similar brain changes, the more care giving involvement, the more changes. Not quite as much as the mothers but a significant change.

I read something about men experiencing a significant drop in testosterone after becoming fathers; the more involved, the bigger the drop iirc. Now wondering if those are linked.

This study found no difference in brains of pre-teens who identified as trans compared to those who did not. But did find there was a measurable difference in the brains of adolescents who were taking the drug triptorelin and those who were not. The abstract ascribes this to the fact those taking triptorelin identified as trans not because they were taking triptorelin - a drug known to impact the brain. Indeed, it is strangely silent on the fact the ‘trans’ participants were taking anything at all...

Loads of excellent critiques. Yy to no gnc or gay / lesbian control groups. I also know the temptation to put too much faith in a scan. In reality, even if the results were verified it'd be as useful as saying trans children prefer toys associated with their acquired gender. Liking cars vs barbers (for example) is still a better indicator of differentiating girls and boys than these scam differences

I'll try to find it hipster I seem to remember something about that.

To be honest op, of your daughter could be persuaded to read the gendered brain by Gina Rippon it might clarify a lot.

I've finally just started too much time on mn and there's a really interesting early section on sex and gender and why the two are separately but also jointly important but how they have become confused. (Quoting a bbc bitesize revision guide using gender to describe Gametes ffs!)

My kids are bilingual so I have read a lot on it. Being bilingual is totally nurture v nature obviously and from what I have read there are significant differences in the brain scans of bilingual and monolingual people.

There are slight sex differences in the brain because xx/xy (and I haven't got any furthe!) but there are gender differences too - gender differences created by environmental impacts.

Interesting paper on mosaic brains.

www.pnas.org/content/112/50/15468

I would love to see the researcher compare the brain scans of teenagers diagnosed with autism, who don't identify as trans.

Some excellent critiques in this thread which together would make a great piece of journalism.

What upsets me often when the trans community are chasing papers proving trans differences in the brain in terms of expression of personality is that so many genetic disorders show significant impacts on brain and skill expression. they don't know how lucky they are to have a brain capable of doing the things they wish to do. Though I accept there's likely to be a level of depression or low mood involved.

For example Williams syndrome is characterised by severe spatial and maths skills, but extremely caring and friendly personalities. But affects both sexes.

We must stop being so binary in how we view the brain; it's ultimately a self fulfilling prophecy.

Williams syndrome
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19213012/

(Trying to post two very relevant parts in the book re hormones and spatial skills but it won't let me. P278 if you have the book.)

solo I believe GR is / has been researching the brains of girls with autism.

Study on maternal brain changes - very long. Notes lack of research, but partly due to concerns about inherent misogyny in how research might be used.

www.bostonglobe.com/magazine/2018/07/17/pregnant-women-care-ignores-one-most-profound-changes-new-mom-faces/CF5wyP0b5EGCcZ8fzLUWbP/story.html

Study within article on gay fathers compared to maternal brains
www.pnas.org/content/111/27/9792

I'd really like to compare the brains of adults who provide a lot of care for animals actually too. Does that tap into these parts of the brain?

Increasingly it's clear the more you delve into this area, the more you realise that we have to be so careful in how the biology is interpreted within contexts of societal pressures and how it might be used and by who for what means.

I sometimes read threads like these, where research is thoroughly unpicked and explained in a very accessible way, and marvel at the arrogance of politicians coming on here assuming they’ll have a cosy chat with some mummies about prams. Even the most cursory skim of this board would tell you the vast majority of posters are incredibly intelligent, articulate and have a huge range of skills between them.

I read something about men experiencing a significant drop in testosterone after becoming fathers; the more involved, the bigger the drop iirc. Now wondering if those are linked.

Dr Robert Sapolsky's book Behave linked testosterone with a drive for "high status" behaviour, whatever that means in the context, e.g. it could mean fighting or could mean becoming CEO. I wonder whether this is a link the other way, either those men with lower testosterone are more likely to do childcare, which is generally perceived as low status, or doing "low status" activities lowers testosterone.