Self-excluding because of 'inclusive' language? Let's get some data.

[ThirteenPicnicBaskets]

Inspired in part by the Scottish self-exclusion survey (now finished) and anecdotal evidence from women about their experience with 'women's' activities and events, I decided to collect some data.

Survey link:

docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeWae3l4Pu9EPxEcQJhJtZsYhaV0LE-7j00ijL1eYgukNRY9Q/viewform?fbclid=IwAR27tHn26lT5CcO47opVYDHpoSrVpX-wdvSTf3x7EMpAK6I-TF2fMU8CDnI

I'm trying to understand how inclusive / social-justice inspired event descriptions appeal to women (or otherwise). If an event is meant for women, are we more or less likely to go if it's advertised as 'for femme-identified people' or 'womxn'? Conversely, if you're a woman looking for an event or course specifically for women, what language /would/ appeal to you?

The survey is anonymous and I can't identify your contributions individually - although please don't input any data that might identify you. Keep safe, and all that.

Will be closing the survey at the end of May so we have a bit of time to reach quite a lot of women. I plan to make the outputs freely available so those involved in event organising, etc, have some statistics to go on in making decisions.

Usual caveats, it's self-selecting and therefore shouldn't be taken as revealed truth or particularly scientific, however I think it could be useful all the same.

Please feel free to share around the place.

Special thank you to the women who gave me advice and help in developing this. I'm not an academic or pro researcher and it is greatly appreciated.

Hope you get some interesting responses.

Great :)

Done.

Done

Done, good luck!

Good idea

To add, someone I know made a Facebook post for international women’s day and used the phrase I’m lucky to know loads of incredible women and if you’re reading this and identify as female then you are one of them For some reason this made me feel excluded and angry. I can’t put my finger on why?

Bitchy probably because (if you’re anything like me) you don’t believe it’s possible to ‘identify as female’ any more then you can identify as a tomato or a Moomin, it’s something you either are or you aren’t.

And as this is our belief, we don’t identify as female, so this person trying to be nice and inclusive is actually excluding us - and I believe the majority of women - from their well wishes.

I feel the same Bitchy. Pretty sure the anger I feel is at the incredible reach of the campaign, so that women everywhere feel they have to include men and we can’t even have one single day without centering men. Because the huge majority of women would be excluded from her comment as most of us don’t identify as female.

I felt similarly bitchy

Someone I know posted about how a colleague was the first female identitying person to be promoted to a particular management role.

It made me cross

I realised that at the root of it is that I’m old and tired and ive fought all sorts of discrimination, and almost None of it was from how i identified. It has all been because of my actual female biology. This statement erases me and my lived experience. (To appropriate a phrase) and that’s why I’m seething.

There's something in the phrase the first female identitying person to be promoted that makes me think "so that could likely be a male person then". It feels gaslight-y.

Yup. We’re all to be forced to describe ourselves as “identifying as”. Sick of people insisting they must be included and forcing others to use this divisive language, by bullying those who don’t comply.

Gaslighting is exactly what’s happening. Think that’s why it makes my whole body (not just my skin!) crawl.

I just don't know why we can't write Women and leave it at that. If you believe TWAW then that's going to be the right wording, surely? Language like "identifies as" reinforces the difference that must not be spake, doesn't it? Confused.

Some great responses so far - knew I could count on Mumsnet :)

Good point, whoever mentioned that ‘empowering’ has been co-opted too. I didn’t mean to give you a choice between a mixed sex youth group and one where your daughter might be taught to pole dance... it’s a minefield.

My personal view is clear and simple language is usually best, ie if a group is for women, it says so and everyone knows what that means - not just for female safety but also for disability/neurodiverse accessibility, another topic close to my heart. It will be interesting to see to what extent the survey outputs agree with me.

Done. Its actually quite sad seeing it in simple form like that

Done it, and put some interesting answers!

My main answer for all this is that I cannot abdicate from common sense in the name of popularity. I may also just look down my pants if someone asks me if I self identify - I will do it and in public!

It really riled me on LinkedIn on International Women's Day there was a transwoman/ well part-time ( you know a Pips Bunce) blathering on about 'her' femininity and how 'she' had embraced her identity, making it all about themselves. It just made me think just 'fuck off' and stop making it all about you, fortunately, one of my connections who is legendary for his bluntness had already called them on it and the post soon disappeared - I wonder why?

Have done this, and posting to bump. I think this is really important.

Done - this sort of language affects not just neurodiverse people but second-language learners too.

Hi there all,

We're moving this to NFP Surveys now.

done

following this...

Done

Done. I’m not very articulate online but I’ve done my best to explain my feelings in some of the comments.

I will do the survey but wanted to comment on your OP and say I'm a woman - but no way on this earth am I femme identified so would assume any event described in that way was not aimed at me.Which of course it might not be - all depends what it actually means!

Done