Deborah Frances-White and trans-women in sport

[RitaFairclough]

I think DFW is marvellous and I love the Guilty Feminist. But I just read her comment on Twitter about the sport debate and I am wondering how any feminist can really support that position.

I am too scaredy cat to comment on twitter because I use it for work stuff, but I would like to present the following scenarios...

You are a 12-year-old girl and you are really fast at running. You win medals and you dream of being at the Olympics one day. You can even beat the boys - for now. When you are 13, or 14, a trans-girl arrives in your races. She is much taller than you and she runs faster. She wins the medals, and the sponsorship. You know however hard you train you will never beat her. You give up running.

Or

You are a 12-year-old boy and you’re good at running. But by the time you’re 14, your times are slipping and you’re not winning any more. Your coach suggests you say you’re a girl and try your luck in those races. You’re not keen but your parents are pushy and your coach is too, and once you’ve done it once and won a medal easily you start to see the benefits...

I just can’t see any way in which girls or women don’t lose here.

That rather implies that it’s the misogynist’s genitals that are being mutilated.

That's par for the course. Drain everything of meaning, remove from people the ability to give name to their oppression. Except for certain special people who are to be held above all others and are never to be questioned.

Why anyone with sense would enable this is beyond me.

Wtf did I just read? She suggested in front of a victim of FGM that the term FGM is not inclusive to TW. “Never mind that you were probably forcibly held down as a child and had your genitalia mutilated - isn’t all about you, stop being so selfish, you’ve perpetrated literal violence on TW.” You couldn’t fucking make this up!

And some here are giving this woman a pass based on her ‘genuine but misguided good intentions’? Come on, now. There’s stupid and there willfully fucking obliviously dangerously stupid.

Maybe we should talk about someone who might be more interesting?

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-fashion-issue-model-waris-dirie-on-her-fgm-campaign-and-her-own-exile-8627djkll?shareToken=38180aa584c51389b203b7624b1d4ef7

...perhaps should have its own thread, just c&p the link if anyone wants to use it elsewhere.

It's not a pass from me, Warped. I'm just trying to understand why some 'feminists' end up tying themselves in knots. Ironically, it seems to be from female socialisation. Being 'kind' and the reflex of being on the side of those who claim oppression.

In the UK very few men are circumcised, they weren’t held down as babies & cut. She needs to pick her words more carefully. As a young woman I was committed to extensive research and can say this quite confidently.

Mediumsizeddancer any idea which episode it was - guests, theme? So I can look it up. That sounds tone deaf and everything that I have found to be wrong with the current wave of feminism.

I used to listen too. Found it about the time of the Harvey winestein scandal breaking and listened to previous episodes too. Found it often v funny. But slowly went off it.

Manderley- it was in the one called Minefields. I remember it slightly differently- the focus of the program was language and the subject of language around FGM was brought up- so it wasn’t quite as bad. Still bad enough to make me stop listening, though.......And Reubs Walsh (who is a truly awful human being) said it should be called Midogynist Genital Mutilation

Minefields: such an awful episode it has its own thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3031615-Guilty-Feminist-minefields?pg=1&order=

At the end of that MN thread there's a tweet where DFW responds to being told about the MN thread:

twitter.com/GuiltFemPod/status/913762105135951872?s=09

She signs off with "we shall never agree".

I'm not familiar with her but it's sickening to see how many 'Feminists' are only too happy to prioritise men. I refuse to support them. I now Google their names and trans to see what their views are before I purchase any of their books. I almost bought a Roxane Gay book the other day, had a quick Google then deleted the books from my wishlist. It's depressing how often I have to do this.

From Deborahs tweet.
We've got to be on the right side of history on gender & it's clear that in a 100 years time it'll be far more inclusive.

So this isn't about the safety and comfort of women and girls for Deborah, it's about looking good in 100 years time.

I'm not going to compromise my daughter's safety now for what might be acceptable in 100 years time.

A lot has changed in 18 months. In September 2017 it seemed a done deal. Talk of female biology was offensive, you weren't allowed to mention any differences between male and female bodies, nor question the existence of gender identity.

Well done to all of who kept the conversation open. You have moved the Overton window well and truly.

Munroe Bergdorf in an article published today is bemoaning the fact that women are writing articles, apparently this makes h** fell unsafe, and there is this quote.

''The model said that society is in a state of "flux", and the structures of society - including language - are meant to "uphold power".''

Yes, and they're losing the battle over language and they know it.

We've got to be on the right side of history on gender & it's clear that in a 100 years time it'll be far more inclusive.

This is the Owen Jones argument, isn't it? It's such a weak argument. There is nothing clear about what people will believe in 100 years' time. Nothing at all. Back in 1975, if you were a progressive left-leaning type, you might have imagined that in 100 years' time we'd all feel comfortable about adults having sex with children. Well, look at how that turned out.

Dfw sums up the difference of opinion in that thread. It actually gets to the heart of the matter:
'the trans experience is not becoming female but being female. Transition is coming out to the world as female'. It explains her 12 Yr old running tweet too. I often see cg people saying 'you can't change sex', and though that's true its not actually addressing the claims being made. They are not saying they were male and are now female, but they are making a claim about the nature of female and male. A new definition which hasn't been negotiated I have to add. We have to stick to asserting that gender Id and sex are different and the latter is important too.

I hope we end up on 'the right side of history' re gender, but on the right side of biology re sex.

IMO I hope the 'right side of gender' turns out to be the demolition of gender stereotypes, not their entrenchment.

A lot has changed in 18 months. In September 2017 it seemed a done deal. Talk of female biology was offensive, you weren't allowed to mention any differences between male and female bodies, nor question the existence of gender identity.

Really??? I'm not meaning to be goady here, but on whose planet?
My experience is that most people know full well what a man /woman is and are quite sensible about this! Maybe not in the media but in actual life.

I'm just trying to understand why some 'feminists' end up tying themselves in knots. Ironically, it seems to be from female socialisation. Being 'kind' and the reflex of being on the side of those who claim oppression.

Virtue signalling. A FB friend of mine whom I've "known" virtually for a long time, long before FB, is extremely woke and likes to demonstrate her wokeness. The other day she posted about a cashier whom she originally thought was gay, whom she used to see daily and this person seemed to be changing appearance -- make up, clothes, etc , then suddenly one day appeared as a gorgeous woman in full bloom. My friend: "And every time I went in, I wanted to say something affirming, but I second-guessed myself a million times. Because what if it was rude or intrusive for a random stranger to bring it up? At work, especially? On the other hand, what if it was exactly what she needed, to know that there are people all around who are supportive and happy for her? Something told me to just say what I was thinking this time, so I did. "I want you to know that I love seeing you be you. You make me happy." "

She then went on about how the lady beamed and it was just the right thing to do.

364 likes, 46 comments, 9 shares for that post. I think she did it so she can feel god about herself.

good, not god. But god isn't far off.

Looks like I'm not alone, then. I really liked the guilty feminist podcast a while back but a few times the episodes I listened to were so woke with trans inclusion I just had to stop listening as it was maddening. She's a handmaiden through and through and not what feminism needs at all. She makes me so angry because that podcast and all the events could be used for such good. I hope she gets a wake up call from her replies to that ridiculous girl-exclusionary trans-in-sport post.

Ooh she has deleted the tweet!

Lamaha- yes, I recognise a lot of that sort of behaviour. Depressing.

It’s a shame that her wokeness undermines some good things she does.

I’ve actually hired her in the past for corporate work and liked what she did. But I don’t think I would now.

The thing is, if you believe both:
A) you can identify out of the subjugation of your sex and
B) you can identify into the subjugation of the opposite sex
Then sexism doesn't really exist as it is a choice that we all make, whether we are beholden to our sex or not. This leads to...
C) there's no need to be a feminist
D) there's no need to have a blog called The Guilty Feminist and finally
E) Deborah Frances-White needs to get another job.

I don't even know where to start on this guiltyfeminist.com/home-3/you-have-24-hours-to-help-the-gender-recognition-act/ 🤦🏼‍♀️