McKinnon's Position

[SportsForWomen]

I want to pick apart McKinnon's arguments for inclusion.

My own position is that even if transwomen are women in some way, and even if they are all sincere, allowing them to participate in women's sports undermines the whole point of the category.

I summarise McKinnon's argument for transwomen's participation in women's sport. She studiously avoids clarity.

Super short form:
Her end goal: the only eligibilty for participating in women's sports should be an answer "Yes" to the question, "are you a woman"?

Short form.
Transwomen are women, therefore they should be able to compete in women's sports.
There is no evidence that transwomen are better than other women at sports.
Even if there were, transwomen should be able to compete because human rights.

Long form:

1. Women's sports exists. She won't address why, in part because I think it would undermine her entire argument.
2. Transwomen are women, so they should be able to compete in women's sports.
3. The IOC sets the rules, transwomen are obeying the rules, so trans women are not cheating.
4. Individual jurisdictions determine who is a woman, and the IOC accepts that. So if a country has self-id, then a person who ids as a women should be able to compete.
5. Although the averages for men in strength, height, etc are higher, there are bell curves which cross over. (I don't get this one).
6. There appears to be no correlation between natural testosterone levels and peformance. However, she avoids the question of the influence testosterone has on the male body during puberty. She digs into testerone levels of male and female atheletes while studiously avoiding performance bell curves. Her goal here is to establish that lowering endogenous testoterone levels in transwomen by setting a limit is ineffective "no endogenous testosterone policy will be necessary or effective at promoting fairness in (women’s) sport."
7. We have no evidence at all that the average trans woman is any bigger, stronger, faster than the average cisgender woman. [This is hardly a surprise - no one has ever tested it. It's a startling claim, because if there were evdience it's not even vaguely plausible that there would be no difference.]
8. Based on their performance, their doesn't appear to be a particular advantage to being trans after many years of competing.
9. Now it gets interesting. Even if there is a competitive advantage, it's no different from other competive advantages (ie most atheletes at the top have a genetic advantage) "The question is not whether there is a competitive advantage, the question is whether there is an unfair advantage. "
10. So, even if transwomen have an advantage they should be allowed to compete.
11. Participation in sports is a human rights issue which transcends competitiveness.

10. She uses intersex people as a Trojan horse for trans women - her paper does not use a trans women as an example.

1. Individual jurisdictions determine who is a woman, and the IOC accepts that. So if a country has self-id, then a person who ids as a women should be able to compete.

This one causes a hell of a lot of difficulty doesn't it!

The most important question she needs to be asked are:-

Why are there categories for men and women in sport if there is no advantage in being a man?

If there are no advantages in being a man, why are you insistent on being in the women's category?

The bell curve cross over is obviously a nonsense. Obviously there are some women who are taller than some men. But most me. Are taller than most women.

The same is true for all other male advantages, lung capacity, haematocrit etc. But the facts still stand.

If RmK doesn't think there is any difference, why doesn't she take part in the men's category

I have yet to hear her acknowledge that rights conflict and that human rights are not absolute (with the exception of one which does not apply here).

So saying sport is a human right, even if true, isn’t an answer.

For example, the European Court of Human Rights has decided that there was no breach of human rights where Muslim pupils were not allowed to take part in PE lessons without removing their headscarf, and therefore were unable to compete.

(It was a claim for right to religious freedom not sport because I don’t think there is any human right to sport. That’s in Europe - McKinnon is Canadian and I don’t t know their laws but she is certainly applying her arguments in this country).

She doesn’t take part in the men’s category because for her this is about validating her identity. I don’t think it’s even an attempt to gain and advantage and win - I don’t doubt she is genuinely trans. It’s to affirm to herself she is accepted as a woman.

But Rachel, women’s sport does not exist to affirm your identity.

Fell/hill running. The females have it!

www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/features/12_female_uk_hill_runners_who_have_set_the_pace-9928

There is a fundamental difference between participating and competing.

Re the bell curve thing. My very tall friend is nearly 6 foot tall. She is as tall as my DH. She is at the upper end of the centiles for women whilst DH is a very ordinary height for a man. So the outliers like my friend are being compared to an average for men but McKinnon's argument is saying 'look some women are as tall as me so you can't say my height is an advantage'.

Not forgetting Nicky Spinks

www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/jul/10/fell-runners-116-mile-feat-adds-to-summer-of-sporting-triumphs

Tall women are taller than short men. But they are still women, with women's lung capacity, cardiovascular systems, bone density, muscle density, ratio of fast twitch to slow twitch fibres and skeletal anatomy. All of which will give a six foot man and advantage over a six foot women.

If I any more my eyes might fall out.

Technically RM is correct on this one

1. The IOC sets the rules, transwomen are obeying the rules, so trans women are not cheating.

I wonder if she genuinely believes "that the average trans woman is any bigger, stronger, faster than the average cisgender woman." (an actual quote), or whether she is using weasel words when she prefixes it with "We have no evidence at all." The former seems so implausible, I don't see how anyone can believe it. Here is a very simple statistical proof that it can't be right.

A significant percentage of trans women transition after puberty.
If smaller people have the same chance of transitioning as larger people, then those trans women will follow the pattern of male size.
Males are on average bigger than females.
Therefore, all other things being equal, transwomen will be on average bigger than ciswomen.

The same applies to stronger and faster.

As the British Judo Federation stated in their evidence to the govt over the 2010 EA, a 56kg man could flatten a 60kg woman in short order.

My posts are to demonstrate that these are long distance running endurance, which many older women compete in and are successful. They compete against men within their age group.

Absolutely Ribo but lots of people don't know much about the other things so they latch on to height and wonder if they have a point.
I include myself in the lots of people. I've probably learnt more biology from all this than I did at school.

placemats yes - there are some arenas women can compete with men on an even footing, or even have an advantage. I'm completely happy with mixed events for those categories.

Therefore, all other things being equal, transwomen will be on average bigger than ciswomen.

I find the term ciswomen highly offensive. I can understand an older generation person using the word 'coloured' say and forgive them for that. But seriously, in this day and age please stop with the offensive term 'cis'.

TimeLady yes - she's not actually cheating. I am not sure she deserves all the vitriol for competing. I just think the rules are wrong, and that's what we should argue.

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/offbelay/helppmeunderstandd-whyygenderreassignment-669859

I can see they wouldn’t be at an advantage in day gymnastics where already the events are separate for men and women.

But she is disingenuous; her response to DrFondOfBeetles thread is that it compares women to men, and not to trans women - but surely given she is arguing for inclusion without restriction, there will be no physiological difference at all between men and trans women who have not taken any medication to transition.

placemats I am sorry I offended you and I am happy to use a different word. I'd prefer to avoid getting into language which makes a definitive statement about whether trans women are women or not if that's OK.

Here is the sentence:

Therefore, all other things being equal, trans women will be on average bigger than ciswomen.

How can I phrase this without irritating you or implying trans women are not women? Ideally, the language shouldn't speak to that.

I don't think RM is cheating. RM didn't write the rules and is sticking to the rules. It's the rules that are wrong.

However, RM is an idiot if RM thinks we don't see right through RM.

I have a sneaking suspicion that trans women don't excel at sport because of the bell curve. There are so few trans women, that their are not enough of them for the Olympic-level outliers to consistently manifest. However, if the participation in women's sports of trans women reaches the level in the general population (1%) then there is a very good chance that a half-way decent male athlete (say any of the top hundred or so top sprinters in the UK) will transition and win the Olympics easily.

I think McKinnon has considered that, judging by her latest Radio 4 interview, because she suggests that a big trans win would not undermine her position.

She's also very careful not to state her end position coherently.

But OP it isn’t just about the olympics and elite sport. It’s all sports including grassroots level. There has been a big push to get women involved in sport - this girl can etc - and this risks undermining that.

I also think it will cause a big backlash against trans people. I don’t care about a backlash on the ridiculous ideology but I do care about a backlash on trans people.

Women are adult females.

Hope that helps. I don't need to be distinguished from trans women who are born male.

all other things being equal, transwomen (males) will be on average bigger than females

That does it, surely? Except for the 'words only mean what I say they mean' crowd?