Some feminists, Emma Thompson amongst them, sign letter decrying trans-exclusionary responses to the GRA

[EweSurname]

www.thenational.scot/news/17472564.they-do-not-speak-for-us-feminists-hit-back-at-trans-exclusionary-activists-in-open-letter/

We, the undersigned, are a large and diverse group of women who are committed to ensuring that trans people feel welcome and safe within our society.

Recently there has been a rise in ill-informed articles and commentary, where writers have continually insinuated that trans women are not women. These same pieces misrepresent current legal statutes, equalities policies, and public attitudes in Scotland.

Since 2004 the Gender Recognition Act has realised, in law, the rights of trans women as women and trans men as men. Since 1999, the Sex Discrimination (Gender Reassignment) Regulations and then the Equality Act (2010) have recognised, in law, the right of the trans community not to be discriminated against on the basis of their gender reassignment. The right of trans people to access gender specific services is an already settled legal matter.

Many national and regional news outlets routinely fail in their pages to recognise this legal reality. Instead, it is our perspective that some writers rely on recycling outdated arguments in an uncomfortable attempt to shoehorn trans identities into much needed conversations about gender-based discrimination and violence.

We believe that national conversations about gender-based discrimination and violence are necessary, however these conversations should not in any way attempt to roll back the rights that trans people already have in Scotland, nor spread misinformation.

In the Scottish Government's recent public consultation on reforming the Gender Recognition Act (2004) a majority of respondents supported gender self declaration, as well as recognising non-binary people. As a collective of women, we urge that trans-exclusionary writers do not suggest that their narrow and archaic arguments are in any way representative of the women of Scotland. They do not speak for us.

This is not an issue of Freedom of Speech. Both sides have a plethora of platforms to outline their position. However, it is imperative that these platforms should not be used to spread misinformation or misrepresent the law or the facts in this area.

When this conversation is reduce

d to allegations of "shutting down debate" whenever misrepresentation or misinformation is challenged, the result is to purposefully discount the position of many women - like us - who support the trans community. We will be heard.

Trans people have played an integral role in every civil rights movement to date; from LGBT equality to women's causes. Attempts to airbrush trans people from conversations regarding equality and human rights, or to exclude them from advancements for LGBT and women's rights, have happened before. Such efforts may have re-energised, but they are nothing new, and we say as a collective of women: they are not representative of us. We support trans rights.

Outlets and commentators have an ethical responsibility to consider the impact of their reportage, analysis and commentary particularly on the mental health of trans young people. Recently, data from Stonewall Scotland revealed that over half of trans people considered ending their lives last year. Trans people continue to face unlawful discrimination and violence. Routine misinformation and sensationalism is contributing to a cultural climate where this is legitimised. This has to stop.

Journalists, commentators, and publishers have a central role to play in ensuring Scotland is a welcoming and inclusive place for trans people.

The conversation has to change.

Rhiannon Spear, Chair of Time for Inclusive Education (TIE) and Glasgow City Councillor for Greater Pollok

Tiffany Kane, Vice Chair of Time for Inclusive Education (TIE) and Operations Manager at Common Weal

Dame Emma Thompson, Double Academy Award Winner

Laura Waddell, Publisher and Writer

Dr Jennifer Jones, Independent

Rosa Zambonini, Communications Manager to Member of the Scottish Parliament

Cllr Jennifer Layden, SNP Councillor for Calton

Dr Claire Askew, University of Edinburgh

Laura Wylie, Sexual Violence Prevention Worker at the Women’s Rape and Sexual Abuse Centre (Dundee and Angus),

Sinead Daly, CEO of the Women’s Rape and Sexual Abuse Centre (Dundee and Angus)

Christina Neuwirth, Writer

Kate Adair, SQIFF

Eve Livingston, Freelance Journalist

Kelly Given, Equalities & Mental Health Advocate

Jennifer Constable, Journalist

Rachel Hamada, Journalist

Leona Jack, Gender Based Violence Practitioner

Angela Haggerty, Journalist

Lynne Davies, Foster Carer

Amanda Stanley, Freelance Podcast Producer

Kaite Welsh, Author & Journalist

Hannah Bardell, MP for Livingston

Miriam Brett, International Finance Project Manager

Sarah Masson, or Co-Artistic Director of Shift, Shift Theatre

Fi and Charlotte Duffy-Scott, Co-Owners, Category Is Books, Glasgow

Claire Biddles, Freelance Writer

Erin Hardee, Schools Outreach Organiser

School of Life Sciences, University of Dundee

Dr Pat Cullum BA (Hons) DPhil FRHistS, FHEA, School Co-Ordinator for Student Experience, School of Music, Humanities and Media, University of Huddersfield

Gail Ross MSP, SNP Member of Scottish Parliament for Caithness

Dr Eleanor Janega, Guest Teacher at the LSE

Cllr Kim Long, Green Councillor for Dennistoun

Cllr Eva Murray, Labour Councillor for Garscadden/ Scotstounhill

Cllr Christina Cannon, SNP Councillor for Springburn/Robroyston

Cllr Martha Wardrop, Green Councillor for Hillhead

Bailie Christy Mearns, Green Councillor for Anderston/ City & Yorkhill

Cara Spence, Head of Programmes, LGBT Youth Scotland

Amy Irons, Broadcaster

Hannah Pearson, Queer Feminist Campaigner

Rebecca Crowther, PHD Social Science Researcher

Susan Ross, Police Scotland

Jane Friffin, Head of Partnerships, LGBT Youth Scotland

Michelle Sodo, Head of Operations, LGBT Youth Scotland

Nicola Booth, Head of Youth Work, LGBT Youth Scotland

Bridget Bradley, Teaching Fellow, The University of Edinburgh School of Medical Anthropology

Naomi McAuliffe, Scotland Programme Director, Amnesty International

Gayle Telfer Stevens, Olivier Award Winning Actor

Jen Ang, Lawyer and Director, Just Right Scotland

Lisa Clark, Senior Communications Officer, Children in Scotland

Mhairi McMillan, Solicitor, Logans Solicitors, Cumnock

Margaret Logan, Women’s Aid, Support Worker

Dr Brandi Lee Lough Dennell, Research Associate

Rona Mackay, SNP MSP for Strathkelvin and Bearsden

Hazel Marzetti, PHD Student, University of Glasgow

Pam Currie, EIS FELA President (Personal Capacity)

Fiona Robertson, SNP's National Women's and Equalities Convenor

Katherine O’Donnell, Journalist

Christine Burns MBE, Equality Campaigner and Author

Lucy Spraggan, Musician

Leeze Lawrence, Producer, Editor, Filmmaker & Trans Advocate

Helen Nugent, Journalist and Editor of Northern Soul

Janet Coulson, Actor and Creative Director of Firebrand Theatre

Paris Lees, Writer and Broadcaster

Marlene Zwickler, Agent and Producer

Elena Soper, Feminist and Activist

Mhairi Black MP, Paisley and Renfrewshire South

Dr Lindsay Clark, Post-Doctoral researcher

Jackie Brock, Chief Executive, Children in Scotland

Joanna Murphy, Chair, National Parent Forum for Scotland

Louise Oliver, Actor and producer

Lady Mary Hope, Lady Hope of Craighead

Audrey Barnes, Campaigns & Programmes Coordinator at YWCA Scotland

Jemma Tracey, Senior Participation Officer, Children in Scotland

Laura McGlynn, University of Glasgow

Bailey McCormack, Event Coordinator and Freelance Performer

Emma Rogan, Senior Policy Officer at Children in Scotland

Róisín McKelvey, Feminist PhD Researcher

Janine Ewen, Queer Feminist, Violence Against Women Campaigner

I've seen 4 to 5% elsewhere, but I got the number by taking an average from

The Prevalence of Paraphilic Interests and Behaviors in the General Population: A Provincial Survey by Christian C. Joyal & Julie Carpentier

where prevalence among men is 6.5% and

Transvestic Fetishism in the General Population by Niklas Långström& Kenneth J. Zucker

which put the prevalence among men at 2.8%.

The latter is based on data collected in 1996 and the authors of the former study posit that prevalence today is probably higher because of the internet.

So 6.5 and 2.8 leads me to 4.65% but I used 4% for the calculations. Obviously prevalence in the UK could be as low as Sweden 23 years ago or as high as Canada 3 years ago. I think 4% as an educated guess is acceptable.

But as far as I can tell from the trans umbrella, the prevalence is close to 100%. Thinking about recent examples, it’s only acceptable to claim that somebody isn’t trans if they are gender critical.

Thinking about recent examples, it’s only acceptable to claim that somebody isn’t trans if they are gender critical.

I would think most gender critical people would fall under agender:

"People who identify as agender may describe themselves as one or more of the following:

• Genderless or lacking gender.
• Gender neutral. This may be meant in the sense of being neither man or woman yet still having a gender.
• Neutrois or neutrally gendered.
• Having an unknown or undefinable gender; not aligning with any

binary or non-binary gender.

• Having no other words that fit their gender identity.

*- Not knowing or not caring about gender, as an internal identity and/or as an external label.

• Deciding not to label their gender.
• Identifying more as a person than any gender at all.*"

From: gender.wikia.com/wiki/Agender

Everyone is trans.

Bold fail. I think most GC people would fall under one of the last 3 in that list.

4% is interesting. I’ve heard similar. Also (and not overlapping, before anyone gets happy with the report button) wasn’t there something recently saying up to 5% of men have paedophilic tendencies? I’ll need to look for the paper...

Oh same issue..www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00224499.2015.1020108?src=recsys 4%. Scary.

There seems to be a lot of dysfunction in Male sexuality. The fact that it’s varying so much over short time/geographical measures suggests a strong societal influence as well. This isn’t my area at all, does anyone know WHY male sexuality is so much more disordered?

CharlieParley Thank you for your excellent posts.

My teenager tells me I’m old-fashioned in my views but I keep telling her just wait till your women only spaces are open to women with men’s genitalia and you’re supposed to say nothing and accept it.

I’m late to all this but have learned so much from threads like these.

This isn’t my area at all, does anyone know WHY male sexuality is so much more disordered?

The authors of these and similar papers all report that paraphilia behaviours are linked to traumatic experiences in childhood and other adverse events. There's clearly something about how these affect the male psyche that is different to females, but what that is, I can only guess at. And my guess is, female socialization.

But the while point of the thing was to alter the ‘legal reality’. You can hear a loud whooshing as the point goes flying over their heads really.

That’s interesting charlie - it brings to mind this case and others like it.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6425317/amp/Woman-engaged-CHANDELIER-gets-tattoo-partner-dreams-arm.html

Again this is written as a hatchet job but it’s actually very sad - could female socialisation be displacing the abnormal fixation onto something that can’t be harmed? Whereas males displace onto things that can?

yes, that weird thing of getting married to buildings is always women isn't it - I've never heard of a man doing that

how interesting

'are non-binary people supposed to be an anomaly?)'

Yes.
I read one org that said agnder was rare., anyway.

This theory starts with a lot of untested assumptions and extrapolates from there.

The first and biggest assumption is that the vast majority of people have a strongly held internal sense of gender id.

No one has checked if this is true. The assumption comes from trans people who by definition do. What about everyone else?

In reality most people, to use genderist language, are non binary or a gender. I reckon.

I don't know, as no one has tried to find out.

yes, that weird thing of getting married to buildings is always women isn't it - I've never heard of a man doing that

Not to buildings, no; but I have heard of men with paraphilias who have sex with cars.

does anyone know WHY male sexuality is so much more disordered?

Not my field, either, but my guess would be biology and socialisation / structuralism, ie men have created social structures that enable them to give expression to great sexual experimentation / expression whereas, due to social constraints, women are more restricted as to sexual activities.

I realise my post was a bit obtuse, but I'm thinking religions in which men are expected to be celibate (we all know of paedophilia within the Catholic church) or allowed to be polygynous (Islam is a prime example). Plus, there is the double standard of "eee, he's a lad, that one" and "she's a slut".

Also, the incidence of other sociopathic disorders (psychopathy etc, sorry I'm not up on the proper technical terms!) means that there will be more men incapable of forming adult emotional relationships and relying on children for their emotional needs.
And of course more men assume that because they want to have sex with someone else, the feeling MUST be mutual (though this might only explain more men acting on paedophilic feelings not more men having them).

Perhaps Angela Haggerty who (as far as I know) does not/has not worked in a Refuge (writing articles don't count) could provide evidence of her statement:
government funded women's organisations consulted the women using their services and found no problems.
Was this specifically about the GRC being extended to ALL men who wish to self ID? As THAT is what this is about-not about genuine transwomen nor what has gone on in the past (when rare). Were women/workers in services forewarned that if they said they would be unhappy they could be sent to be "re-educated", as if racists, according to the Guidance: "Stronger together" (re-published 2015) mentioned by SS of FWS? This states this is what has to happen if a vulnerable woman who is escaping trauma/abuse says they are uncomfortable with male bodied people in the sex segregated service. It actually states the transgender person may still be living as a "man" (in public) so they may not ever see them even presenting as female. Did women know it wouldn't necessarily be transitioned/late stage transitioned women but, if GRA changes, potentially men who have no plans to do anything medical re: this?
It is not just about Refuges (which do great work under pressure/funding constraints) & who have "women only" risk assessments but ALL vulnerable women's spaces (like those FWS rep said) e.g. women in Prisons who we KNOW were not consulted. Or the female only Hostel a serial (male bodied) child sex offender was re-housed in this month (in Scotland) AFTER Police risk assessments.
Apart from misinforming listeners, AH was overbearing -lots of comments online about how she kept interrupting SS of FWS (who was calm & measured & made excellent points) so not a good representative of anyone signing the letter. The Glasgow Councillor who wrote it made a feeble excuse (on Twitter) with a Straw man argument about why she would not go on STV-distorting what the MSP (who wasn't on the programme!) said. Thousands of people (apart from those who liked JM's twitter thread) have now supported Joan McAlpine (many quietly because of this prejudice as to their motivations).
Portraying all who are asking questions about how this could lead to women not wanting to use services (or leaving them) as akin to homophobes is propaganda to try to discredit women. Many of us have been active in fighting for Gay rights (some before she'd left school) or are and/or have family members/friends who have different sexualities/are transsexuals. An experienced interviewee (AH) trying to muffle the debate by talking over the FWS woman (an unpaid campaigner) was a poor show.

The first and biggest assumption is that the vast majority of people have a strongly held internal sense of gender id.

No one has checked if this is true. The assumption comes from trans people who by definition do. What about everyone else?

I think if you asked most people what their gender is, they would state their sex. So according to the genderists, they would have a 'gender identity' which aligns with their sex. Of course, most of them wouldn't have "a strongly held internal sense of gender id", they'd think they were just stating the obvious.

I don't know how you could phrase the question to get a meaningful answer.

"Not my field, either, but my guess would be biology and socialisation / structuralism, ie men have created social structures that enable them to give expression to great sexual experimentation / expression whereas, due to social constraints, women are more restricted as to sexual activities."

+++
biology

Risk of pregnancy and vulnerability to attack that might invoke risk of pregnancy are massive things for us.

"I think if you asked most people what their gender is, they would state their sex. So according to the genderists, they would have a 'gender identity' which aligns with their sex".

Agree.

Also if asked both most people tick their sex on the basis they aren't trans.

Nothing is trying to get to the heart of, is gender id something that the average person has a strong internal sense of, how this related to stereotypes, homophobia, social conditioning, & etc

Apart from feminists of course

I suppose the way to do it might be to say, what things about yourself do you see as really important, that are not linked to your physical self but to who you are as a person.

But then, when everyone said Oh well the fact I am into ping pong is v important couldn't give a shit about gender they'd say AHA you are SO C*S you don't even notice.

I feel like a person. I have no internal feeling of gender id. I relate to a mix of things coded masculine / feminine / neutral, like pretty much every other person on the planet.

It's like looking at little girls in smiggle and saying, this is literally all they are and all they ever will be. And ditto boys. Who go to smiggle. In fairly large numbers. And buy stuff, but somehow, smiggle is "girly"...

I mean all of this is a big fucking kick in the cunt for the feminists esp lesbian feminists who have felt unsettled / at odds with / disliked / hated / and kicked against / fought against / defied gender role forever.

And then to add insult to injury they start transing the dead ones.

This is why this group of women is so very fucking angry.

I don't know how you could phrase the question to get a meaningful answer.

I answered a question on a survey yesterday "No" in relation to did my gender identity match my sex at birth. I'm pretty sure they're not getting the answer they were hoping for. I was thinking about it though and it needs an answer choice that says "I think gender is a load of bollocks" to actually get accurate answers.

Bowlofbabelfish that's certainly worth thinking about (And what an odd notion, to marry a building. Must feel very safe though - they can't hurt you, demand anything from you, leave you or let you down).

I know that other female survivors can exhibit risk-taking behaviours that can lead to degrading encounters but I don't know if males do the same. But essentially the question is what coping mechanisms victims resort to, are there distinct patterns that are different between the sexes and do these inform sexual behaviour, and how. And how many exhibit paraphilia who didn't experience trauma or adverse events?

Great points Orwellianmince Pretty much my reaction on watching AH. Hadn't seen the tweets by Rhiannon. So, that's a low-level wannabe politician refusing to go on TV to debate with a higher level politician over a point of policy. Seems career-limiting to me. Can't find the twwets anymore though, looks like she deleted them. Does anyone have any screenshots?

It's all about the woke points isn't it?

Mhairi Hunter stated she signed It as The way the debate about the rights of trans people is framed by fears of predatory behaviour is what prompted me to sign the letter.

So I asked her Hi Mhairi. Given that gender reassignment is a protected category under EA2010 could you please explain what the "debate about the rights of trans people" is about in your view? What rights don't they have already? I keep asking but nobody answers.

Over a day later, despite her being very active on twitter, tumbleweed.

Not a good look for an elected representative, is it? Doesn't like the way the debate is framed but unable or unwilling to explain exactly what the debate is about. Ho hum.

Because she doesn't know Yambabe. Utterly clueless. She saw some Z list Scottish sceners signing up and wanted to be up there too. That's it. Like half the names on the list. 90% of them wouldn't be able to discuss any of this from an informed standpoint. They're all over the place.

Someone should introduce the signatories to the majesty that is Rachel McKinnon. They can peak trans anyone within seconds with their bullying and sense of self entitlement, and that is immediately obvious - we could introduce them to the homophobia later.

That is pretty well how I answered a survey last week Everard.

One question asked my sex.

Second question asked my gender identity. To which I ticked 'other' and wrote in the box words to the effect of 'it is all oppressive bollocks'.

Although I was pleasantly surprised the survey had been that well thought out.

Dr Brandi’s a bit of a tit isn’t they? Is ‘I get discriminated against because of my gender presentation’ not a bit victim blamey?