The cotton ceiling for gay men

[MindTheMinotaur]

Someone just asked on another thread, if there is a cotton ceiling equivalent for gay men. I thought I'd post this link

More outrage than support on the Data Lounge. Thanks for that one Iused2b.

I liked your points Ova, thanks.

Ds1 is gay

He said some of this ' you are transphobic if you have a genital choice'is beginning to filter down

I love that boy more than life

I'm gonna be pissed if this causes a problem for him

I do how ever, firmly believe that you love who you love

I read that guide and I thought it was kind and helpful TBH, even if it was a bit laissez faire about some pretty risky behaviour. There was LOTS in it about consent and how it's okay to decline sex with someone if you don't fancy it/them, for whatever reason. It was also pretty clear about specifying on an OLD/hook-up profile that you're trans.

So, do you think the bit about deceiving gay men, is helpful IShouldBeSoLurky? Is it ok for female bodied person to pretend to have a male body, in order to deceive gay men. I remember a time when pretending to be someone you aren’t, in order to deceive a gay or lesbian person would have been considered homophobic. Is that no longer the case?

Deciding if and when to tell people you are trans can be tricky. Some guys might not tell their sex partners. Others might tell them straight away. Some of us might not have a choice based on our identity, presentation or stage of transition. It helps to work out what feels right for you.

I don't think that's sooo terrible TBH. To me it implies that you should be honest, even if you pass, which you probably don't.

Well this looks like a glossy and authoratative booklet to help transmen in navigating gay sex.

This booklet uses the term front hole to describe the vagina. Cock to refers to the clitoris or the results of lower surgery (usually metoidoplasty or phalloplasty). Cock can also refers to the penis that our partners were born with.

Words lose their meaning again.

Wetter is better: Using lots of lube can feel great. Our own front hole lubrication can be reduced if we’re taking T. So we might need more lube than we did before we started hormones Sex in front hole = penis or something else in vagina. Words lose their meaning again.

T can increase your appetite, muscle mass, sex drive. It can cause your cock to grow larger and become more sensitive It's not a cock, it's an enlarged clitoris. Be who you are, have sex with who you want, but why do you need to change words? Words lose their meaning again.

This takes the reader down a rabbit hole that's so confused that I don't think anyone could unpick it!

So, it's a resource for females (ah, go on then, I'll say 'people assigned female at birth) who identify more with the male body/born in the wrong body,, choose to take hormones (or not) and wish to have sex with gay males (though if the males choose to have sex with transmen who have female bodies, whether or not they've chosen to take hormones, are they gay? According to the new world, they are, cos gender identity trumps biological reality).

I'd be a bit fucked off as a gay biological man to have my reality appropriated by this glossy resource.

But as a gay man socialised as male, it probably won't bother me too much because, meh, whatever. You transmen with your enlarged cocks(clitori) get on with your front hole lubrication and all.

Lurky

Yes I thought the advice re consent was very clear and in an ideal world sensible.
Unfortunately if you reference a current thread about getting a rape case prosecuted I can't help but think it may give a false sense of security re:
a. That consent will be respected and
b. That appropriate help will be available if it all goes horribly wrong.

It's frankly a bit blasé about "if something goes wrong" or "If you feel that you were forced"

Also, revisiting those photos. Well they just feel all sorts of wrong. One in particular looks like the very definition of "feeling something is wrong....forced".

But apart from that there does appear to be information that is likely to meet the needs of the target audience.
Q

Deciding if and when to tell people you are trans can be tricky. Some guys might not tell their sex partners. Others might tell them straight away. Some of us might not have a choice based on our identity, presentation or stage of transition. It helps to work out what feels right for you.

I don't think that's sooo terrible TBH. To me it implies that you should be honest, even if you pass, which you probably don't.

Seriously? There's no implication that honesty is a component of enthusiastic consent there at all. Deciding if you're going to tell a gay man that you are not a male before engaging in sex with him based on what 'feels right for you'?

I mean, from a feminist perspective, my concern there is the danger a woman would be putting herself in through deliberate deception, but on a broader level, I am appalled that anyone would think this kind of grossly unethical advice was appropriate on any level. It's endorsing deception. No two ways about it, and a trans person was prosecuted for this kind of behaviour not so long ago.

That datalounge reply 22

Can you imagine saying that on here?

That datalounge reply 22
*
Can you imagine saying that on here?*

Not if you want to stay on the forum. Speaks some truth though. 🤯

You'll notice that the datalounge thread was shut down at only 62 replies. They have much more freedom of expression than MN but the moderators there close trans threads a lot. I think it's quite something that an article about happenings in a gay sauna isn't allowed to be commented on at length.

I've just had a really horrible thought. What happens when heterosexual sexually abusive men start identifying as gay on dating apps and go after transmen?

Just to be clear, it's part of the same Venn diagram as heterosexual sexually abusive men identifying as transwomen and going after lesbians.

Good point, nauticant

It does seem that every day in every way females, both juvenile and adult, are being encouraged and/or told they have no choice but to set themselves up to be violated.

Utterly appalling and degrading in every way. I am disgusted. Obtaining sex by deception is totally immoral and illegal. Its an obligation to disclose before every time, not at your discretion. I barely have the words. There's a helpline apparently if it goes a bit wrong. Is there also a helpline for people who have been abused by such a deception? How much help would 999 be?.

And the photos.. bloody hell. Telling that is it the two (quite obvious) females that are kissing, but down in their knees BDSM style for what appears to be the male. FFS.

It becomes more clear to me that for some people that biological sex/ sexual orientation does not matter much if what they are after is a sexual thrill from dominating or abusing any human who they can objectify and dehumanise or project onto, (much like men who rape men in prison perhaps). Or those who want to be abused.

That's a very different concept from 'you love who you love'. There is no love in this leaflet, just abusive paraphilia. Its sickening.

And on front holes and women's biology... I just can't even.. gry]

Another who can't get over the idea that it's all just fiiiiiiiiine and normal to hide that your biological sex is different to that which the person expects you to be. Consent is sexy eh, just as long as it's not informed.

I thought all the people in the booklet were transmen? Looked like that to me. A very sad little booklet.
Also what it fails to mention is that a percentage of MSM live straight lives. Many come from homophobic communities and have wives and children. So fucking a stranger in a sauna or a park won't necessarily be the gay experience the transman is expecting; MSM might be bisexual (presumably most sleep with their wives too) and might want access to a front hole the transman has claimed is off limits.
That front hole can get pregnant. And if the transman is on long term T the front hole is likely to have atrophied so PIV may well be very uncomfortable.
Anal sex without a prostate. Anal sex with a smaller anus! BDSM and blood play, all very high risk (and no mention of the supposed negotiation, strict boundaries and aftercare we normally hear from BDSM aficionados)
I really can't see how encouraging smaller weaker people to meet with anonymous men for wordless public sex, drugged sex, rough sex or BDSM sex is doing anything other than putting them at risk.
This is the epitome of "they're going to do it anyway, we're just trying to manage risk".

Scary scary stuff.

This is a further cruelty for transitioning children. They have very little idea as children of what they are losing in terms of cutting down their future dating pool. That won't mean anything to someone getting off on a kink around deception but for others it's going to be bitter.

As for the illegality around sex by deception, I think I've heard that trans organisations are trying to overturn this.

Not the point of this thread I know, but I find it so odd to refer to a vagina as ‘front hole’ when it isn’t the front hole. Why not the more accurate ‘middle hole’?!

Yeah, I think accuracy isn't really the strong suit of people who think that female bodies are in any way male...

Rita, I appreciate you taking a stand for accuracy

It’s not that long ago is it, that a woman was jailed for having sex with another woman while pretending to be a man.

But now sex by deception is okay? I can’t keep up.

Gayle Newland jailed for 6 years in 2017.

Presumably a trans man?