new (to me) trans twitter @rhysmckavanagh

[angelwithalariat]

This looks really nuanced and interesting to me - I think we need to look at the possible middle ground - I agree there are a lot of TRA where there is no middle ground but if we can find some with trans people we should. I know some of you won't agree - but - thoughts?

Op thanks I'll have a look at this account. another interesting account to look at is jenny randles. She's a transexual woman who transitioned decades ago and has really illuminating conversations with other trans women who are also trying to think of a way forward. Its an interesting read

I agree Towel, that this an issue for men to sort but I don't want to see people caught in the crossfire in the meantime and if that's a third space then so be it.

The thing is, the ONLY reason women have our own specific rights, spaces and services is because we have female bodies.

Like all mammals, our bodies are, in the vast majority, smaller, slower and less strong than the males of our species. Like all mammals, it’s the human females who gestate and feed the offspring, and it’s our bodies that suffer the discomfort, risks and consequences associated with being the reproductive class.

People who don’t have female bodies will receive absolutely no practical benefits by accessing women’s legal rights, but if we can’t define women as ‘adult human female’ it will significantly weaken our legal protections. The ones designed specifically for our bodies.

That might not sound like such a big deal in the privileged west but human rights laws are international and if we can’t retain our protections in the first world, the women of the developing world will never get them.

We need political representation by members of our own sex class in order to protect those rights.

I totally support trans people’s identities being similarly, but separately protected in law, but lumping transwomen in with women, despite having completely different social, legal and medical needs, will leave us all fucked in the long term.

Angel, so you actually agree with a rather strong GC position only you have nice-person feelings about it whereas we’re all hardened witches who don’t actually mean it when we say “sorry?”

The thing is that the position I have outlined here would earn me death threats if I said it where Owen Jones could hear. I don’t think of my position as any kind of compromise, I think of it as both uncompromising and the only thing that will work.

Anyway this thread is reminding me of Sense and Sensibility, specifically the scene where Elinor and Marianne argue about marrying for money. Marianne thinks it’s a dreadful thing to do, Elinor thinks it’s only practical, but it turns out that Marianne’s income requirement for a husband is twice Elinor’s...

I get that vibe from a lot of women who think TERFs are being too mean or something. When you boil it down to practicalities, they agree with us, they just want us to perform sentimentality better.

I do think society should deal with it.

So do you mean that men should deal with it? If so, I agree.

Seriously Cloven, I am definitely a hardened witch. I feel I've been pushed into a harder position than I would like by arseholes on the TRA side. I would like to explore whether that is absolutely necessary. Don't think TERFs are 'mean' and the twitter I referenced looks at the fact that GC means supporting GNC - which some TRA want to deny. Not Elinor or Marianne - I hope I'm more of an Emma.

Yes I basically think men should deal with it. But if they won't we are going to be stuck with it one way or another.

Sounds reasonable to me OP

Come to think of it, my favourite Jane Austen woman is the one in Persuasion who's married to the Admiral? She's pretty stroppy and her husband respects her for it and she enjoys an adventurous life in so far as she can being as she is in a Jane Austen novel.

Like AnyOldPrion said, we've been in the middle ground since 2004 and looks what's happening now!

Yeah thinking if trans rights people agreed with how we see gender - would we move on how we see sex?

OP once upon a time I would have agreed with you but I've reached a point where I feel so aggrieved at the injustice of the way women are currently being treated in this debate that I'm working hard to resist the temptation to say we need to repeal the original GRA.

I believe that gender dysphoria exists and I do have great sympathy for the people affected by this condition but I'm afraid I'm not prepared to see women's rights legislated away to accommodate them.

Many years ago I supported an ex partner through transition. I didn't think it was a big deal and I was glad that they felt more comfortable after transition. They always treated me with kindness, consideration and respect. I have never been anti trans.

Initially I thought that the problems were being caused by a small number of aggressively vocal activists, whilst I think it is true that they may be small in number they are loud and incredibly influential. I can scarcely believe the silencing of anyone that has the temerity to question the new gender orthodoxy. The level of aggression and violence on display gives me no confidence that any kind of middle ground can be negotiated. It seems to be their way or die in fire? Sadly our politicians seem to agree.

So on the question of compromise, it's a no from me.

I love Sophy Croft too!

And yes I know what you mean, but I’m past the stage where I believe compromise is possible; there are too many bad actors who will regard a compromise as an opportunity to erode boundaries. There are people in the world who will always find a way to make you regret being nice to them.

'So on the question of compromise, it's a no from me.'

At this point, I only respect that. But still see if anyone can come up with a better compromise.

On the issue of being nice......
I try to treat everyone with dignity and respect until they give me a reason not to. It's how I would like to be treated. I tend not to treat people nicely with the intention of manipulating them. I think it is disrespectful to push other people's boundaries if they would not knowingly and with good grace honour a request. Generally I try to communicate my wants and needs clearly and accept the answer I'm given.

Yes I basically think men should deal with it. But if they won't we are going to be stuck with it one way or another.

Are you saying that if men won't deal with it then we'll have to? No to that. If men can't deal with gender-non-conforming men, that doesn't make it women's problem to solve. We have to keep saying no.

Yes there should be some compromise. But not from women.

I liked how this man put it

“My own view is women should not have to cede a single fucking millimetre of ground, when it comes to their rights. Women’s rights still need moving forward, not backward. It is outrageous that this is even being proposed in the first place

I think this is men’s problem. We’re why there are single sex spaces in the first place. We’re why some transwomen don’t feel safe in men’s spaces. Yet we are not being asked to give up anything, change anything – not even the way we think. NOTHING.

There needs to be another way, and it’s going to have to come out of men’s resources. Whether its third spaces, ‘open’ sports events etc I don’t know. But we need to talk about it. Calmly and rationally. Mainly, we need to fix why men are a threat to both women and transwomen“

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1076276617041854464.html

I think the original GRA should go. I agree about the incredible toxicity of the current TRA position - the nodebate, the framing of any disagreement with the current narrative as 'wanting trans people to die', 'wanting to erase transpeople'. It's toxic and incredibly dangerous. But I think we - ok not me, not you, but some of us, ok sometimes me for a moment - sometimes lose sight that there are people out there - who define themselves as trans - who aren't any more comfortable with gender than we are - who recognise that this shit is toxic - who might be looking for a - well I don't want to use the word compromise, but, yeah, compromise? And I think a lot of the trans allies are not actually trans - some of them of course are MRAs - but some of them are people who will be influenced by what your actual trans people think.

Please believe me I never lose sight of the people who may end up as collateral damage in all of this. It just seems it's difficult enough to fight our own corner so I'm happy to be an ally I really don't feel able to accept responsibility for finding a solution .

Compromising and nuance* is what got us where we are.

A boundary is a boundary and no is a complete sentence.

You agree, OP, that it's men's problem to solve. So riddle me this: why aren't you out and about on men's boards exhorting them to solve it?

We've had this conversation a million times already. Human beings can't change sex and women have rights, earned through the blood, sweat and tears of our foremothers.

*nuance is rapidly becoming my least favourite word. It's only ever used by people telling women to budge up. I would prefer never to read it again.

You agree, OP, that it's men's problem to solve. So riddle me this: why aren't you out and about on men's boards exhorting them to solve it?

Compromise already occurred in the original 2004GRA
Much further compromise occurred in the 2010 EA

There isn't really any where else to compromise.

I agree with Rhys. His position seems to be:

1. Biology is real (controversial I know).
2. The TRA position is vile and dangerous.
3. Gender dysphoria is real (like many on here he thinks sex stereotypes are a big cause).
4. Sometimes transition is the only treatment that works for GD, but it's an adult choice in extremis.
5. Transsexuals need a place in the world, just not at a cost of women's rights.
6. Yaaaayyy Brexit.

Well, to be precise I agree with him about 5/6ths of the way.

Why are you asking women to compromise? Compromising is what got us here, to this point, only now we finally see just what the consequences of our compromise are.

Our language proscribed.

Our spaces occupied.

Our lived experiences as female-bodied people in a male-dominated world - already undervalued in our patriarchal society - further denigrated by framing any reference to women's issues as exclusionary and bigoted.

Lesbian culture, spaces, places, media - almost entirely gone.

Our sports - currently being colonised by men.

Can you not see that the fact that we can no longer legally have anything that is women-only without having to justify that this is a proportionate means to a legitimate end, is already a compromise too far?

Deaf people aren't asked to justify why they don't include hearing people, campaign groups for the rights of the windrush generation don't have to justify excluding those that emigrated to Britain in 2010. They all might point you in the right direction, but they dont have to move over for others.

No, the time for compromise is over.

My definition of compromise (because we are all entitled to our own definitions now, right?) is "the solution that just about nobody wanted".

We are already the wrong side of compromise. Look where giving an inch here and there has got us.

Always remember that the ideology underpinning trans is a men's sexual rights movement. They are not going to compromise. Nothing gets in the way of men's sexual gratification.