Help a brother out

[Glinner]

Hello, you coven of squints far right Nazi witches!

I'd like to collect some anecdotes about when and why you first became involved in the debate about gender ideology and activism. I've also asked on Twitter but thought this might be good for longer answers.

Please tell me your stories!

I was booted out of Irish feminism (tm) because I said men can't have babies so it's wrong to use gender neutral pronouns around reproductive rights. Then I listened to some Magdalen Berns podcasts and all was lost.

What was I deleted for? I can only assume for misgendering Travis Alabanza but I didn't think that they actually used female pronouns? Luckily I screenshot my entire post just in case as it was a long one so I've tweeted it to you privately Graham.

A long build up. I worked for about six months in a specialist health service accessed by trans people. None were anything other than pleasant (though vigilant about language) but I found it personally unbelievably distressing to be expected to act as if being female can be taught as a behaviour. It brought up all sorts of stuff for me about being a woman and my own biology. I ended up spending hundreds on counselling just to go to work. After that few months I begged just to stop and thank goodness they let me, apparently it's not unusual to find it hard.

That was a personal reaction. But it set the scene for the Labour party all women shortlists. The lack of explanation, reflection, debate - Just, these people will have the places now. I was born in 1969 for fuck's sake. I know we had Thatcher (lucky old us) but as I was growing up a female politician was so rare, so strange; they all did so much extra and were judged so much. The casual flinging of that recent, painful achievement into the fucking bin.

My peakiest moment after that was meeting someone who works somewhere very relevant to this debate, who is even more certain than I am that TW are TW. Being a woman is not a club. It's a fact.

I can't remember what first made me become involved.

But while women can't talk about ovarian cancer without being censored, I know we still need to talk about the damage genderists are doing.

Six months ago I casually googled "terf meaning" after our NZ female MP stated "...and we don't want any fucking terfs there" (Pride March). Thankfully I chose to head to Mumsnet from the options.
I so admire the women on this feminist site, and MNHQ for hosting it.

Really, Mumsnet? My first ever deletion (as far as I know) and it was a post about my mother dying of Ovarian cancer?

When I said I peaked daily - here's today's.

MNHQ - what are you even thinking? May remind you once again that while you are promoting a video about coercive behaviour and how to spot it and how important this is, you are also doing things like this? I'm deeply disappointed.

for Betty.

But while women can't talk about ovarian cancer without being censored, I know we still need to talk about the damage genderists are doing.

Indeed. Did someone object on the grounds that TW can't get ovarian cancer, or what?

I don't think Germaine Greer is mad... she's always been an outspoken woman with very thought provoking opinions. The dismissal of older women doesn't sit well with me, seems like misogyny. And dismissal of second wave feminists as out of touch old crazies has been awful for the feminist movement.

Really, Mumsnet? My first ever deletion (as far as I know) and it was a post about my mother dying of Ovarian cancer?

Tactless as all hell @MNHQ

@BettyDuMonde

..Apols

"She may be.."

If you think this, you should still show respect and let her have a voice.

I'm now estranged from a (gay male) family member after a discussion in which he tried to educate me about why TWAW. Part of this was him telling me I had "no reason to be worried" about the thought of men coming into women's spaces. I'm afraid the words "How fucking dare you!" were used by me and he cut me off soon after.

For me, it was about a year ago; believe it or not, it was a male political blogger on Twitter who "converted" me. I'd been following him for years, agreeing with most of what he wrote; then he started tweeting about how Transwomen aren't women and shouldn't be allowed in womens' spaces.
I was appalled and couldn't believe that he'd be so bigoted; up till then I'd always believed - without really thinking about it - the 'born in the wrong body' stuff, thought that misgendering was transphobia and so on. So I started arguing with him. He didn't insult me or block me - he debated, presenting facts and arguments. Some of his followers also replied to me, and they were the same - there was none of the usual Twitter nastiness and piling-on. Just sensible, polite argument.
So that got me wondering - all of these people are so reasonable and intelligent, why should they be transphobic all of a sudden?
There wasn't a sudden moment when things clicked, I just realised that I had been wrong all those years, and started thinking for myself!

And here I am.

This is a moving thread. to OP and to everyone who has contributed.

I never believed TWAW and was aware about 10-12 years ago of an infiltration of all feminist and women's groups by a vociferous pro-prostitution contingent which this led to young feminists being egged on to do 'Slutwalks' and burlesque by the early incarnation of wokebeards. These were 'sex positive' and 'queer' feminists.

Concurrent with that was a sudden influx of 'that's transphobic' in comments under the most straightforward feminist blogs - it was mystifying and suddenly soon after TW seemed to want to join everything for women.
I noticed some tension and pushback from lesbians- and my trying to find out why, led me to discover what happened at Mitchfest - a male consealed themselves amongst the women (many felt free to walk about topless etc, free of the male gaze - so they thought) and decided to get naked in the showers (forshadowing Jess Bradley) which completely freaked out the sexual violence survivors who had very good reason to associate unexpected/out of context penis with assault. Very cogent arguments were made that anyone who understood what it means to be a woman, would have known not to do such a shocking thing to women in a vulnerable state.

A transsexual in a women's group I was in was being fawned over and I wanted to be kind until I found out that their presence was voyeuristic - wanting to learn what women experience and feel about it, in order to pass better. I felt violated to have our personal stories used like that. Also there seemed to be an ultimate win 'acceptance' by radical feminists would be the ultimate validation 'as a woman'.

I went to a conference where Sheila Jeffreys spoke and she laid it all out - lesbians, transwidows, horrific surgery and sexual fetish. I was absolutely shocked at how bad it all was. She mentioned the normalisation of 'transitioning' kids was coming to the UK. I didn't believe her - I thought that was for nutty American home schoolers. How wrong I was.

This is my first time publically contributing to any sort of debate about trans activism so I’ve got a lot still to learn.

I was always a fairly liberal feminist but what changed my mind (among other things) was seeing photos from the Mermaids PowerPoint with the spectrum of gender between Barbie and GI Joe. I couldn’t see any reason why perpertrating such gender stereotypes would be advantagous to trans people or otherwise. Also I find the denial of biological reality shocking and something I can’t get on board with.

I started reading some threads on FWR just out of interest, and looking for feminist reading just to remind me. I missed the feminists of my youth!

I started reading a bit about 'what is a woman' and thought yeah, why shouldn't someone 'feel like a woman' and we embrace them - its cool and inclusive and I am a nice person etc etc.

Then I read about Mermaids and their sweetie stall at Pride and all my upbringing with social work parents (that I had put firmly behind me) came to the fore. I read their twitter feed and warning bells were ringing and red flags waving in my face. I looked at the other twitter feed of the marketing manager and

I talked about it with my lovely DDs, fresh out of uni, the pride of my life and they said Mermaids was wonderful, I was totally wrong (Mums know nuffing, of course ) . In fact they had fallen for the whole bollox, male lesbians and all

So I found out more. And more. And more. Then I realised what the proposed changes to the GRA really meant to women, the extent they had been removed from any debate and sidelined, Stonewalls call for Exemptions in the Equality Act to be removed. I have looked at the 'education' programmes these organisations promote. Now I realise that it is so much more than the Act; organisations have been encouraged and bamboozled into making changes ahead of any change of the law and there is so much more to do!

I have watched the movement of women grow, the meetings start, the shutting down, bomb threats, 'punching terfs' and the lot. I have followed the progress of the individuals who advised government and have been major players in all this and so many of them have succumbed to so many scandals - and I have watched that being 'brushed under the carpet'.

Every day I peak trans. It is like a rollercoaster. There is always something new to knock you sideways.

I've always been sceptical of people being able to 'change sex' going back to the 1970s and reading the serialisation of Jan Morris' book in the Sunday papers as a schoolgirl. I could never understand (and still can't) why the treatment for gender dysphoria is so different from other seemingly similar conditions such as anorexia. However, it had very little impact on my life and I was very much live and let live. The little I knew was gleaned from mildly GC comments below articles in the Guardian in the days when they were still allowed. Then I heard India Willoughby telling Jenni Murray that unshaven legs are dirty, read Jenni's subsequent Sunday Times article and discovered Mumsnet. Since the GRA consultation last Autumn I have become addicted to lurking on the FWR boards, have written to my MP, done various consultations, ceased reading the Guardian, taken out Times and Spectator subscriptions and wondered long and hard who I can vote for in the next election. I really have been radicalised in my 60's, something I never expected!

The woman of the year award thing. Reading on here. The vitriol at Jenni Murray and then the sports injustice. If I mention anything even mildly I am not being “kind”. Then an incident in my own life - we host teenage girls on a language program. I went to collect one pair and one was a boy in eyeshadow. As he identified as a girl I had to host him which put me in breach of the single sex room sharing rule as he was sharing with a girl both under 16!. Dh furious as we only signed up to host girls as their room is next to our young dds so our boundaries trampled. The whole thing was a mess.

Really, Mumsnet? My first ever deletion (as far as I know) and it was a post about my mother dying of Ovarian cancer?

@BettyDuMonde

MNHQ Its worth considering that whomever decided to report Betty's post is hardly 'in the spirit' of the board given this is Mumsnet and Feminism and Women's Rights.

I remember Betty's arrival on the board, the circumstances and also her decision to share what are incredibly important impacts for women's gyny health when TRAs lobby Cancer Charities.

The point at which women's health is put at risk due to ill-thought out male interest lobby groups should have been a real cause for concern to every woman and every female-centred platform.

I'm not going to write any more just now.

Caitlin Jenner and the woman of the year award.
Maria being assaulted at speakers corner, she then had to lie in court and use her attacker's preferred pronouns.
Caitlin Jenner deciding that they are now lesbian and in a relationship with a female.
Finding FWR on Mumsnet
Too many more to mention

My first scrunching-my-eyes-and-shaking-my-head occurrence was when a "man" in Oregon was pregnant. They came originally from Hawaii, I think, were in a relationship with a woman. My thoughts were "talk about having your cake and eating it". I can only find a reference to a story in 2017, but I think it was quite some time before that, a year or 2, maybe. Anyway, I dismissed it pretty much as a rare anomaly.

I think it wasn't until about this time last year that I got into reading FWR (which I'd avoidece before). I'd always been a bit wary, suspecting different motives, about the significantly higher number of MtF than FtM (know none of the latter, about 5 or 6 of the former over the last 30 years or so). I think it was probably Datun who linked 4th Wave Now and the Blanchard article which made everything make perfect sense all of a sudden.

Still had to learn about the spate of (pre)pubescent girls identifying as boys, though. Could have done without that .

It was the Get the L Out protest at Pride in 2018. The media reported it as a 'transphobic protest' and an outrage, with the Mayor of London condemning it in strong terms but nobody, not the Guardian, not Penis News, actually showed pictures of the signs that the protestors carried. It made me curious - what did they say that was so evil? When I found out that the protestors were a small band of women in shorts and sensible shoes saying things like 'lesbian = homosexual female' and 'lesbian not queer' I became more and more puzzled. Who were these trans ally busybodies to tell a bunch of lesbians how to think about their sexuality? If that's how they like to describe themselves, female homosexuals, what's the problem? Who am I, a boring heterosexual, to tell them they can't do that?

The authoritarian control of language was very off-putting. The misogyny was palpable. It became very clear that this was about shutting women down and taking away material but also political resources.

I don't much like the term 'peak trans' because my problem is not with individuals who suffer from gender/sex dysphoria but with an ideology that is based on lies and coercion. That said, I have much less sympathy with males who fetishise womanhood in a way that forces others to validate them as women (autogynephilia). It's never OK to involve unwilling others in acts or behaviours that provide sexual gratification. Shouldn't be controversial in the age of MeToo.

Glinner thanks for all you do: it takes balls to stand up as you are.

I am a life long leftie, feminist, most of my best friends growing up were gay, know several old school transsexuals etc etc. I was really as trans right supporting as it’s possible to be.

Then Caitlin Jenner, IOC, being at the Olympics when three male bodied athletes ran a different 800m race to the other athletes...the final tipping point for me was almost the attempt to ban pussy hats on the women’s march. They couldn’t let us have one joyful, amusing thing, could they.

But no, the real tipping point is my lovely, precious, tiny niece. Born prematurely, with a father with clear mental health problems, she battled a difficult childhood where her almost definite autism has never been recognised or her given support for it. And as an aunt it’s hard to interfere with parents’choices. I wasn’t surprised she came out as a lesbian - except she was very young and in mind really too young to be defining her sexuality, so I wonder who was making her think about that: she was always online. Then next thing she changes her name to a gender neutral one and with all around her being supportive about her bravery etc etc is on the path to lifelong medicalisation, sterility and pain. No one was allowed to question her narrative or challenge it because...trans.

I feel culpable. And heartbroken. I should have spoken up about a possible autism diagnosis when she was young. I should have done something. So I can’t save her, but I can do what I can to protect other children.

Hi everyone,
We're still reading through this fast-moving thread but wanted to answer Betty's query.

[quote]Really, Mumsnet? My first ever deletion (as far as I know) and it was a post about my mother dying of Ovarian cancer?
[/quote]

We did need to delete your post as there were definitely guideline-breaking elements but have no objection to you re-posting the link to the article you wrote about your mum. In fact we'd be pleased if you did, it was a lovely tribute.

We're sorry that we upset you with this decision, though, Betty, we'd never want to do that.

Haven’t RTFT

I had lots of trans friends. I thought it was the latest fad but whatever, they can wear what they like and call themselves what they like, it made no difference to me.

Then, on a lesbian message board, that has now shut down, another lesbian started a thread about the cotton ceiling. I was like ‘no, of course I’d never want to sleep with anyone with a dick, I’m a lesbian, silly.’ It was all a bit ‘that can’t be happening, it’s rediculous.’

Then somebody raised the possible changes to the GRA. Again, I was like, ‘oh don’t be daft,’ but I went away and did some research and discovered that yes, there was going to be a consultation, with the aim to allow whoever to change their legal sex, just by signing a piece of paper.

I went back to aforementioned thread on the lesbian message board and started to ask questions, and oh boy was I shocked by the dog’s abuse I got, simply for raising what I considered obvious, common sense concerns.

My arse wasn’t on the fence for long, I can tell you, not with all the bullying, gaslighting, strawmen and accusations of being a nazi.

So, I’m sad to say, it was some other lesbians who peaked me. And the message board, well the argument raged for a few months, then the TRA cheerleaders scarpered when Jess Bradley and Karen White happened, but by then most of the other regulars drifted away because the toxic atmosphere had permeated through everything. It’s such a shame because there was some great discussion and some good laughs to be had on there.

So it was the TRA cheerleaders that peaked me, because anyone who defends their position by launching vicious, unwarranted attacks immediately peaks my suspicion, and if you tell me not to look behind that door, I’m sure as hell gonna look behind that door, because if whatever is behind it is harmless, they won’t mind me seeing it.