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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gina Rippon on the Gendered Brain on Today Prog 27th Feb

39 replies

NeurotrashWarrior · 26/02/2019 08:21

There's just too much news at the mo!

Now moved to tomorrow morning, I believe Simon Baron Cohen (who came up with the autism is an extreme male brain idea - debunked) is also interviewed.

twitter.com/ginarippon1/status/1100100789555642369?s=21

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beenandgoneandbackagain · 26/02/2019 08:29

Having only read a brief magazine article about the book, it seems she talks a lot of sense, and also a lot about gender being a social construct.

Yay for sensible women!

Melroses · 26/02/2019 08:41

Thanks. I thought I must have missed it as I have only been listening since 8. Will tune in again tomorrow!

The more it gets bumped, the more I want to hear it! Anticipation....

MsJeminaPuddleduck · 26/02/2019 08:43

Bumping .. I'm planning to use this as an evidence base for my son's school about why I don't want him being taught about gendered brains

NeurotrashWarrior · 26/02/2019 09:20

I'm buying the book today. Just decided. Especially as I believe she has it is researching autistic brains and also girls with autism. We have and autistic girl in the family and I work with children with autism. I have my own anecdotal theories based on experience and observation and I'd like to compare with her research.

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NeurotrashWarrior · 26/02/2019 09:23

Sorry, I'm crap at doing good links.

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DonaldTwain · 26/02/2019 09:24

Hi
SB-C’s work on early signs of autism was instrumental in my son getting early dx and help so I must wave a flag for him here. Also I think his work on the autism =male brain stuff has been overplayed by others and he would be the first to acknowledge that asd in girls is under diagnosed and that any theory about male vs female brain related to averages and tells us nothing about individuals.
Just had to get that in. Never met him but he has helped me a lot.

NeurotrashWarrior · 26/02/2019 09:24

For the motion Professor Gina Rippon. Against the motion Professor Simon Baron-Cohen. Moderator Hannah MacInnes.
The idea that male and female brains are ‘essentially’ different is one of the most controversial and contested in science, old and new, propped up by centuries of ‘neurononsense’.
So argues neuroscientist Gina Rippon. Settling this argument, she argues, has potentially far-reaching consequences for the future of medicine and mental health treatment, the workplace and society as a whole.
But do studies claiming to show differences between the brains of men and women actually uncover an inconvenient truth? Or are they, as she proposes, merely attempts to justify the sexist status quo?
It’s time to accept that brains should not be ‘sexed’, says Gina Rippon. It’s misleading to attribute any differences in behaviour, abilities, achievements, or personality to the possession of either a female brain or a male brain. And she argues that new techniques can prove it. After centuries of ingrained neurosexism, neuroscience’s cutting-edge breakthroughs should at last liberate us from outdated misunderstandings of what our brains can and cannot do.
Psychologist Simon Baron-Cohen takes a different perspective. Whilst he agrees that individuals’ brains should not and cannot be ‘sexed’, he reminds us that group studies of males and females do reveal differences on average: Men on average are better at analysing systems and women on average are better at empathising with people. And he marshals evidence from studies of prenatal hormones and genetics that these traits have both biological and cultural roots.
In addition, Simon Baron-Cohen doesn’t just study average sex differences for the sake of it: he does so to understand autism, a neurological condition that affects three times as many boys as girls, and which he argues is an extreme version of the typical male brain.
Simon Baron-Cohen and Gina Rippon agree on their moral perspective: they both want a society free of discrimination on the basis of gender (or ethnicity, or disability). And they agree that pseudoscience is dangerous: men are not from Mars, or women from Venus. But they disagree on two key points: whether essential differences between males and females are part of human nature; and whether or not these should be ignored.
Join us at the Royal Institution as two leaders of their field go head-to-head to debate the evidence for and against the existence of sex differences in the mind and the brain. We’ll sift fact from conjecture, science from nonsense, and explore the ramifications for education, employment, relationships, psychiatry, and how we identify ourselves.

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Katvonfelttipeyebrows · 26/02/2019 09:25

That event looked great, I wish I'd organised myself to go

NeurotrashWarrior · 26/02/2019 09:29

@DonaldTwain absolutely, what I find interesting is that my niece followed very similar patterns of behaviour including the stereotype of Thomas the tank engine except that then it morphed into dolls. But then, when I really looked at how she was interacting actually the behaviour was exactly the same; 'play' with the dolls never moved beyond lining them up, naming them and listing their ages/ birthdays.

An outsider might say she plays with dolls. But it wasn't true play.

And yes, he's a major player in the way autistic children are picked up and treated.

At the same time, I know many young boys ( as well as obviously girls) who didn't have the autism picked up because they didn't fit these stereotypes.

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NeurotrashWarrior · 26/02/2019 09:39

Worth wacking this visual explanation of autism in here too:

I know there are boys and girls who've not been diagnosed with autism because they've not fitted the generalised stereotype professionals have in their minds about what autism is.

It's not a number line spectrum.

the-art-of-autism.com/understanding-the-spectrum-a-comic-strip-explanation/

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DonaldTwain · 26/02/2019 09:46

I think the reason why baron cohens work on the CHAT and MCHAT was so important was it enabled a move away from screening based on stereotypes to evidence based red flags (lack of pointing etc). If only HVs actually used these tools consistently and acted on them!

NeurotrashWarrior · 26/02/2019 09:48

In addition, Simon Baron-Cohen doesn’t just study average sex differences for the sake of it: he does so to understand autism, a neurological condition that affects three times as many boys as girls, and which he argues is an extreme version of the typical male brain.

I actually thought I'd seen evidence to show this was fairly equal.

However, I do know that, in relation to a range of learning difficulties that might lie along side autism, there tends to be more boys - fine and gross motor skills, visual motor skills, speech and language difficulties, working memory issues, adhd etc. Settings for children with moderate learning difficulties tend to have a higher percentage of boys. In provisions for more severe learning and physical difficulties there is more of a balance between the sexes.

Often there are coexisting difficulties for many children with autism.

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NeurotrashWarrior · 26/02/2019 09:52

Donald, I wouldn't be surprised if he now doesn't really express it as an extreme 'male' brain, which it looks like he hints at in that description.

There are just too many stereotypes associated with it.

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LizzieSiddal · 26/02/2019 10:26

Thanks for the heads up, will listen tomorrow.

OvaHere · 26/02/2019 10:40

At the same time, I know many young boys ( as well as obviously girls) who didn't have the autism picked up because they didn't fit these stereotypes.

I also found the stereotypes unhelpful. My DS finally got a diagnosis a year ago age 14 after a decade of pursuing it.

He's been under CAMHS since age 5 due to behavioural issues but there was a huge barrier there because his presentation is atypical unless you spend a lot of time with him which no clinician ever has. Things only changed when the secondary school support workers were able to see what I saw and backed me up.

By atypical I mean that he didn't do things like line up toys - he never played with toys full stop and for the 10 -12 years of his life pretty much trashed and broke anything in his line of sight.

Interestingly, and I'm not sure exactly why this is, his ASD has become more apparent as he's got older. If I had to guess I'd say puberty has reduced his hyperactive behaviour and aggression (which was previously diagnosed as ADHD/ODD) which is odd because you sort of expect it to be the other way around with teens.

Bebstar123 · 26/02/2019 10:48

Baron-Cohen does at least seem to have realised the problems the extreme male brain theory caused lots of autistic girls, last year on Twitter he championed lots of female voices, especially those who's diagnosis was missed in the early years.

DonaldTwain · 27/02/2019 06:51

Anyone know when this is on?

SoloClarinet · 27/02/2019 07:40

Nice opinion price here in The Times today about female M.P.s, references Gina Rippon's writing at the end

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/women-mps-have-had-enough-of-the-boys-club-f7d9vh09x?shareToken=be4eed3aaba3664674d1be90f927ba85

NeurotrashWarrior · 27/02/2019 08:09

Oh gosh ova that's awful. I'm glad you're finally getting the support he needs; a shame it's too late.

The stereotypes in some primary/ early years settings are quite difficult to deal with; at the same time so many young children take a little longer to mature than others. I wish there were more fast track screening services in eyfs and ks1 as then of course the waiting times become longer as they get older.

I'm going to have to find it on catch up; kids, school run, teething baby etc. I miss the days of being able to listen to complete programmes but so glad for WiFi and iPlayer!

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NeurotrashWarrior · 27/02/2019 08:10

Thanks for that solo. I've ordered the book!

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Babdoc · 27/02/2019 08:56

I don’t think there are more males with autism. I think girls are better at compensating for their autism and are more intensively socialised by parents and teachers with sexist expectations of how “naturally empathic” girls are meant to be.
Virtually all the females in my and my late DH’s family are autistic. We thought my youngest DD was the “abnormal” one, and ironically she was the only NT one, who didn’t behave like the autistic rest of us!
I remember telling an aunt the features of autism after DD1 was diagnosed at 13, and she was puzzled, saying “But that’s all just normal!”.

NeurotrashWarrior · 27/02/2019 09:02

It's just been on but I could only hear a tad. I heard her talking more about the impact of bilingualism on the brain; possibly to demonstrate plasticity.

Listening later!

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MillytantForceit · 27/02/2019 09:13

"...autism, a neurological condition that affects three times as many boys as girls..."

My understanding is that many more girls have autism than previously thought. This is because they are much better at concealing it.

NeurotrashWarrior · 27/02/2019 10:00

Lol it wasn't her! Someone else talking about the teaching of language and it's affect in the brain. Which is huge apparently.

Babdoc and milly, I think that write up is inaccurate, someone hasn't done their research.

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