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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Attwood - Terror and virtue phases of revolutions

16 replies

Fallingirl · 23/02/2019 18:23

I came across this article by Attwood today. It is a year old, and addressing schisms among generations of feminists. What I found really interesting about it, is this quote:

“This structure – guilty because accused – has applied in many more episodes in human history than Salem. It tends to kick in during the "Terror and Virtue" phase of revolutions – something has gone wrong, and there must be a purge, as in the French Revolution, Stalin's purges in the USSR, the Red Guard period in China, the reign of the Generals in Argentina and the early days of the Iranian Revolution. The list is long and Left and Right have both indulged. Before "Terror and Virtue" is over, a great many have fallen by the wayside. Note that I am not saying that there are no traitors or whatever the target group may be; simply that in such times, the usual rules of evidence are bypassed.

Such things are always done in the name of ushering in a better world. Sometimes they do usher one in, for a time anyway. Sometimes they are used as an excuse for new forms of oppression. ”

It seems an astute observation that can be used to describe, on a smaller scale, the dynamics playing out among trans ideologues themselves, e.g. the purging of people arguing ‘true’ trans are those with gender dysphoria, but also most recently among gender critical people.

The whole ‘distancing from’ palaver going on regarding Posie et al. atm seems to be following a typical pattern.

It made me think that this makes the individuals rushing to condemn Posie, Venice and Julia are almost irrelevant, and their haste to judge without full possession of the facts seems to have been predicted already.

I also think it is extraordinary that the most astute and best considered analyses of the situation took place, not among academics or politicians, but here, among women of MN.

It is perhaps close to inevitable that, as movements mature, such attempted purges will happen. So it is not a tragedy per se, that they do, but we do have to be aware that this happens, and will almost certainly happen again.

On here we seem very, very good at concluding that ideological purity is undesirable.
I think that is a point we should emphasise repeatedly, and possibly be the first to not repeat these unhealthy patterns.

www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/am-i-a-bad-feminist/article37591823/

OP posts:
pachyderm · 23/02/2019 20:11

Atwood is full on TWAW kool-aid unfortunately, she doesnt see the contradictions.

FloralBuntingIsObnoxious · 23/02/2019 20:20

Fallingirl, your point is well made. Knowing humans, i suspect we certainly won't be the first to avoid self destruction, things do indeed fall apart and the centre, sooner or later, cannot hold, but I'm going to give it a damned good try.

(Hope you're well btw)

BigotedWoman · 23/02/2019 20:54

pachy Margaret Atwood is full TWAW? Fuck me.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 23/02/2019 21:23

Given the generally febrile atmosphere, I am continually impressed at the refusal of women on this board to be dragged into tribalist thinking

Lumene · 23/02/2019 21:31

Atwood is full on TWAW kool-aid unfortunately, she doesnt see the contradictions.

Really? Where?

pachyderm · 23/02/2019 23:11

She retweeted this shite

mobile.twitter.com/margaretatwood/status/961914541494870016?lang=en

Barracker · 23/02/2019 23:30

Well said Fallingirl
I spend a significant amount of time in online groups where some of the key players of the recent fall out also dwell. And on twitter, where I see and know some of them either by real name or pseudonym.
And I had drifted away from mumsnet for a while.
The tribalism really shook me. The inability to reason, to be rational and proportionate. The ridiculous rhetoric and the overhyped condemnations. The "do it to Julia" mentality.
I saw women I respected abandoning their integrity and behaving exactly in the way they themselves had previously condemned others for behaving.
And then I came back here, and my god. It was like sanity prevailed.
The relief.
I would still work with and support women from all sides of this recent battle.
But there are fewer women I trust, and one or two who I no longer place any value in their words. Their credibility is destroyed, and not because of who they have associated with, but because of their own words.

Yet mumsnet was so sane, at least, the first thread I found was.
It reminded me of how much I value the wise women here and the considered debate.

MsTiggywinkletoyou · 24/02/2019 00:21

Margaret Atwood is often quoted as saying:
"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them." (What she actually wrote, in 1983, was longer and so less quotable.)
I don't know how she reconciles this pithy summary with no-debate TWAW. The situation we've reached today has women afraid of physical violence from TRAs, while one trans woman has got the Scottish police and judicial system to punish a man for pointing and laughing.

pachyderm · 24/02/2019 08:28

I know.

One creep even gatecrashed a "handmaids" protest about reproductive rights and wrote about it, focusing lovingly on the details of the costume and how they struggled to find one to fit his hulking 6 ft frame. As though in dystopian Gilead they'd be herding together men to have babies. It was fucked up.

Mner2019 · 24/02/2019 09:06

Our strength is definitely in supporting our diversity of opinion, political differences etc.

Can’t believe Atwood is a TRA.

DaedricLordSlayer · 24/02/2019 09:12

I don't know how she reconciles this pithy summary with no-debate TWAW

I was thinking about this yesterday.
My theory is that because it's come from the left side, and works on inclusion rather then oppressive regimes of excluding. She's been blindsided.

There will be one day something that suddenly will open her eyes, and like most of feminism once you take the blue pill (might be red can't remember the correct ref Grin) she'll start noticing the pattern.

I don't know how long it will take, But given her knowledge of world history, I hope when the day comes it won't take her long to do a complete U turn.

--how she's missed it so long is beyond
me--

although briefly looking at those links, she seems to at the whole toilet sharing level of the debate. Which is where a lot of us start out on here. We were only thinking of few Transexuals we knew of who had been minding their own business trying to get on in life quietly. But with many voices here pointing stuff out and debating, it helps to start seeing it for the bigger picture.

jellyfrizz · 24/02/2019 10:54

Just reading replies to that Atwood tweet and just have to say how much I admire Kristina Harrison - always calmly and reasonably standing up for women AND trans people.

ComputerSaysMo · 24/02/2019 11:25

I wonder what Atwood will say after the Canada Winter Games.

WeRiseUp · 24/02/2019 11:30

I admire Kristina Harrison

Nah, not me. What with trying to divide our movement into the good feminists and the bad feminists.

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