Please help me help my son.

[MrsRyanGosling15]

I have just discovered this morning that my 12yr ds has had Instagram on his phone. He is not allowed any social media bar whatsapp. The whatsapp has groups from school e.g. student council and the only friends are boys that have actually came to our house and are real friends. Phone checks take place at random. Last check about 2 weeks ago. I am disgusted at the content of the Instagram. Following and being followed by accounts of half naked women. Posting practically pornographic and degrading memes between friends. None of these friends are real people. It appears they are from the Xbox (already disconnected and in attic)

We can deal with the mistrust and going behind our backs and all appropriate punishments. What I don't know how to deal with and would like some advice on is the attitude to women and girls. I don't even recognise the boy sending these pictures and messages. Any time I mention anything vaguely feminist or pro women's rights he has started rolling his eyes and saying things like oh feminist being triggered here we go. Everything is just joining up now.

I'm not sure what my question is but how can I change his mind set? To make him value and understand why that behaviour to women is wrong. He kind of thinks it was only between friends so he wasn't offending anyone. I just want to raise a good, decent and respectful man. I feel like I have somehow managed to fuck it all up by the age of 12.

Any help or advice, things I could show him, get him to read would be much appreciated.
Also my dh is a great man and father. He could be more supportive of my feminist views in my opinion e.g. we can no longer mention the word trans in this house as we don't agree on that so we agree to disagree. He thought My joining the local feminist network was 'a bit much' but happily would come to some rallys/protests. No idea if this information is needed or not.

Does he have a Grandma or Auntie that he respects or how about a teacher from his earlier school days. Someone who could say, 'I thought you were better than that' and really make it sting? He needs to see that women are people and that his actions are horrible. Every time he says something rude to you, add on another week of no internet/phone or whatever you are using. Doesn't really matter what words he uses, you are not arguing with him, you are punishing his unacceptable attitude.

He is surrounded by women. We are a big extended family and the women far outweigh the men. Numerous women in our family also excelling in male dominated careers and my dsis in particular has fought against men and horrific sexism in her career, which he is aware of. Its like there has suddenly a whole side to him I had no idea about. We are just really coming into the throws of puberty too.

Take his gone away and give him a copy of the female eunuch

Gone? phone!

I think he might need to see some men in his life who are as horrified by what you've seen as you are. Is his dad as horrified as you? Or does he try to minimise it as normal boys behaviour?

And your DH could also be more verbal about why feminism is a good thing for everyone. Does he demonstrate by his actions that he believes women and men to be of equal worth?

Also he has a piece of work to do for school about women and the gender pay gap. He has to research it and put a speech together. I was thinking this could be a good starting point. I want him to realise about his behaviour and genuinely change his thinking rather than me preaching at him.

I think he might need to see some men in his life who are as horrified by what you've seen as you are.

I think this is key. He adores his dad, Wants to be just like him in every way. I think really that my husband believes that men and women are on the whole equal now and "some feminists" (who are this feminists, i have never got an answer) give feminists a bad name. I have been slowly working away at him. He is just home now. He is currently going through the Instagram account. Son is studying hiding

Yes. He needs to see it and hear it from men and boys his age. Take a look at /r/gendercriticalguys on Reddit and check out the likes of Michael Conroy (Google Michael Conroy gender critical) who has done a lot of work with boys around toxic masculinity.

If these “friends” are not real-life friends, a chat reinforcing internet safety is definitely in order.

To paraphrase a comment I read recently:
“The only fact you know about someone on the internet is that they can type”.

Put better parent locks on the phone and remove all social media including WhatsApp. My dd can download anything on her phone she doesn't even have safari.

Also, try not to shame him. It is natural to be curious at that age but he needs to understand that women are people, just like him but they can be exploited and abused.

Has anyone in your family got a late teens/early 20s son/friend/team mate/colleague who could help him understand where you are coming from?

I think there is a tendency to dismiss adults as out of touch, especially when talking about tech related stuff. Someone closer to his age, but mature enough to understand the issues might be a really useful bridge between two camps? I know that this strategy helped enormously with my boy (who is now 18 and almost mature enough to be a bridge himself!)

I think it is down to his father to be a good influence on him.

A boy surrounded by strong women can feel a bit outnumbered and will not necessarily emotionally understand the idea that these same women could be victims of people of his sex.

Have men talk to him sounds like a good idea, but also he needs to understand what he's participating in. It's a fine line between terrifying the kid (because the crap IS terror) and getting him to understand, but I think that's part of what he needs to understand.

How would you feel if you were about to be raped? How would you feel if somebody filmed that? How would you feel if you then saw your "friends" laughing about it?

And if and when that ashen look of understanding dawns, point out "that's what you're taking part in here."

It's the Women Are People lecture brought home to him.

Sorry but I may be missing the point here but are are you seriously shaming your 12 year old son for passing pornographic images between himself and his friends? As a mother of two boys I seriously think that you need to reconsider your stance on the shaming of your son.

I think you have misunderstood. Shaming isn't what anyone is suggesting.

It needs addressing because it's totally inappropriate and he is also demonstrating some unpleasant attitudes towards women.

Ok so I may not have misinterpreted what was originally meant by your post after rereading. However I don't think that this is by anymeans a show that you have "fucked up your son by age 12" However I do have some follow up questions. Mainly due to some of the comments on your post which TBH were rather extreme an somewhat intent on you shaming ypur son.

1. The images that your son and his friends are passing between each other are they images of minors.
2. Were the images that your son and his friends are passing between each other of something that could be interpreted as violent? Do you think that your son has violent intent?
3. Have you considered that perhaps the best way to deal with this is to back off a bit. This is from remembering how it feels to be that age even as a female your hormones are everywhere.

Sorry if you don't agree with this you can report it if you must but my personal view is that porn is not a gate way to rape have you seen what some of these women get paid?

I don't think the child should be shamed, but I have to quarrel with this statement:

if you must but my personal view is that porn is not a gate way to rape have you seen what some of these women get paid?

I have a number of exited women on my twitter feed and to quote one of them today Porn is not filmed prostitution, at least not when prostitution is one on one. Porn for me was never one on one. It was a gang bang every night. Porn as a genre of sexual exploitation is a cross between gang rape, torture, and public humiliation

Ok so because 4% of the huge industry which is porn has portrayed it as " a cross between gang rape, torture, and public humiliation." and because they post this on your Twitterfeed this must be the majority of the industry.
Has anyone actually considered how much damage is being done to young boy while people are discussing how they are all ultimately going to grow up to be sex offenders and serial rapest because they watch a wee bit of porn. And then you've got the other extreme from men who where it's all "but that's what a men do".
What was wrong with teaching your son how to be a decent person nevermind man teaching him to have manners, how to treat a lady properly, how to show emotional honesty, how to support the person they have chosen to be with, how to stand up for yourself.
Now as the mother of two boys one of which is currently being bullied by a girl in his class I have to deal with the consequences of this with a school teacher who stands and watches and when asked if he has done anything says NO he done nothing but she can't be punished cause she's a female and "it's just a phase"
At this point if this is what the future has in store for my son's I am ashamed of being female.

With respect, “Mothernutter” (interesting username!) your experience is both highly atypical, almost to the point of being unbelievable, and completely irrelevant to OP. And your statistics are pulled out of your arse.

I don’t know if I’m doing the wrong thing by responding to you, but you should leave this thread to people who aren’t ashamed of being female, who will have a healthier perspective on this issue. And start your own about your son if you want to discuss that.

OP, sorry, that’s grim. My only suggestion is to get him doing challenging stuff outdoors, I think teenagers who get an opportunity to confront difficult internal and external challenges seem to grow out of the narcissistism faster.

Ugh, narcissism, that should say. Horrible typo.

With respect Cloven:
Yes reading post like this in the feminist section does make me ashamed to be female that is an OPINION. Especially when the definition of feminism is the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.

OPINIONS just incase you were unsure are views or judgements formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge. Something that everyone is ENTITLED to. Something which not every person may agree with.

This is woman who, instead of supporting gender equality, supports sexism. Something that the op and subsequent posters in MY OPINION this post and posters are guilty of. This is not feminism sorry but it's not supporting gender equality. It's an op who has clearly shamed her 12 yo son for looking at and sharing porn with his friends. Something which most pre teens male and female do.
And finally when I pointed out the difference between a female bullying a male to vice versa the point was not narcissistic it was pointing out that there is no gender equality when it comes to being a bully something that the OP is clearly in MY OPINION guilty of with her son.