My friend was accused of rape

[Pilapina]

I feel a bit sick. An old friend has been accused of raping his boyfriend many years ago. I am fighting urges in myself to look for reasons that this is implausible. But really of course it is plausible - I know that and I know you can't judge the truth of the accusation from the behaviour of the victim after the attack.

I don't know what to do. Should I try to get his side of the story? Or just cut him out of my life or what? Obviously I can never 'know' for sure what happened. My thoughts are all over the place and I feel like I'm going in circles.

Has anyone else been in this position that could advise me? Sorry this is not strictly about feminism because it involves two men but I thought the issue is somewhat related.

Listen to his story if he wants to talk about it. Keep an open mind. Don't make judgements until guilt is proven or admitted.

I would listen to what he had to say. It would be awful to be accused of anything and have all your friends turn against you.

Why would his boyfriend accuse him of this, though, if it hadn't happened? If it was years ago, would anyone make that accusation against their then boyfriend?

I think it’s helpful to ask yourself how you would react if the friend was accused of another crime of similar severity - significant fraud? Murder? Try to take some of the ambiguity and emotion out of it caused by it being rape.

It's not a formal legal accusation. I'm quite aware that he would almost certainly be found not guilty if it came to legal proceedings but I don't think that the ex is planning to go that way with it. I suppose he just doesn't want to be silenced and have the secret hanging over him anymore.

This happened right at the beginning of their relationship and they were later married, which is the reason it is such a massive shock (they are no longer together). I won't say anything about him being a wonderful guy or anything - he is just a pretty ordinary kind of guy. But I assume the same is true for all crimes of this nature - I suppose they all have friends who would never have thought that anything like that could have happened. It makes me question whether I ever really knew this man.

I think I will see what he has to say, though.

If he'd been accused of murder or fraud it would be different, because that would be prosecuted through the courts and I could just wait and see how the case went. But I don't think this will ever go to court and I certainly don't put any faith in the legal system when it comes to sexual crimes.

I think it is important to remember that rapists are normal blokes, not monsters and they are all the brothers, sons, friends, dads of people.

For me, I would want to know what his attitude is today. What he thinks about what qualifies as rape and abuse. Whether he understands that although he was having a great time, it is possible the other person wasn't. If I felt convinced he was open to the idea that he could have raped someone and felt duly horrified at the prospect, then I would think there was some decency and would continue being friends until proven otherwise. If he was a brick about it and spouted any rape myths, I would withdraw my friendship.

I think the fraud/murder comparison is a bit different because in these cases either the victim is dead in the case of murder, so cannot testify, or else the victim is often remote in the case of fraud (though not always of course). In this case the OP knows both parties. It's like any violent attack that hasn't resulted in death. I would perhaps be in touch with my friend and tell them that I heard that they raped somebody whom I also know. I would say I feel really shocked and that I'm going to take a little break from contact whilst I get my head around it. That I am not abandoning them per se but I feel very concerned with this new information. It's possible/probable at this stage that the other person will make some attempt to give their side. I would just reiterate that it feels too confusing right now and I'd back away for the time being. Naturally I would consider their appeal because it's only human to do so. I would reach out to the victim if appropriate (depending on the closeness of the relationship). I'd listen to their experiences if that was something they wanted from me or was appropriate. Then I would watch and wait, and try to assimilate the new information. From what you've said I think it might be too much of a shock right now for you to do much else such as attempting to continue friendship with a probable perpetrator (this is possible, but takes a lot of grace and work and depends on your relationship with the victim too). That's my two cents, anyway.

Pilapina, your post isn't very clear. Is there any reason why the ex-partner isn't pursuing a prosecution? And does your friend actually know about this accusation against him?
I know it's natural, but you seem to be concentrating more on your own reactions, rather than thinking about whether this story is true or not. I've never been in this position, but if I was, I'd start re-examining all my interactions with both your friend and his ex, and deciding if your friend could have commited a rape. I'd also bear in mind that this is just an unsupported allegation at the moment, and think how my friend would feel if he were innocent.
But that's just me - YMMV.

but you seem to be concentrating more on your own reactions, rather than thinking about whether this story is true or not

You don't seem to be giving any consideration as to whether or not the story is true.

The ex- boyfriend went on to marry the person they are accusing of rape- after the rape happened and is now wanting to accuse your friend but not in any formal way.

I'm not going to go into all the details that I am aware of because it's not my story to tell, but it's safe to say that there is no 'evidence' apart from the testimonies of the two men involved, so I'd be surprised if he did pursue a prosecution which would almost certainly be unsuccessful. It's not strange to me that he wouldn't want to go through that process even if he was telling the truth.

I am absolutely thinking about whether it is true and re-examining our interactions, but it's not really getting me anywhere and ultimately can't. I find myself going down the road of 'why didn't he do this, why did he do that' (he being the ex), and his behaviour does seem incomprehensible to me but I have heard enough survivor testimonies to know that people do not react to trauma in real life in a nice, neat, logical way.

I know this isn't about me and I know I'm coming off very self-involved here. I was just reeling and thought to ask here, but I think the best thing is to take a step back as PPs have advised and see if more information is forthcoming.

WeRiseUp That is a really good way to look at it, thankyou.

We know that the likelihood is that he is a rapist, both of this ex and all others

How do we know this?
I'm interested in where this conclusion came from.

I think WeRiseUp's post is very sensible. There are so many discussions happening around consent now, and I think the question of whether men - and women - can reflect on their past behaviour and whether or not they are comfortable with it is an important one.

WeRiseUp's point in very good. Otherwise I wouldn't try to be judge and jury, OP. Are you friends with the ex? Do you know him enough to know whether he is capable of being vindictive?

A couple that I knew split up and I was shocked at the level of vindictiveness and outright lies that one of them spouted about the other and, until then, I'd thought he was a really nice bloke.

A close friend of mine once was arrested and convicted for possession of kiddie porn. He served a small amount of time. At the time I chose to talk to him about it, and he professed sorrow for his actions and said he got a lot of therapy, understood why he had sunk so low, and had changed his ways. I kept talking to him although kept him at arms length.
Over the years I noted that he (and the rest of our mutual friends) gradually began to act like it was no big deal and that the ongoing consequences of his actions were something he and they began to resent as something he doesn't deserve because he is a nice guy. They joined the ACLU which insists lingering punishment of sex offenders is wrong (he isn't allowed to live near a school or work with children and he is on a registry).
I noticed he often made unwanted sexual jokes to me in public spaces online and was otherwise inappropriate. I eventually concluded he had not changed deep down at all and unfriended him on facebook and otherwise. He sent me a long hurt private message wanting to know what he had done and asking me to justify the unfriending.

I suggest you talk to him if you think it will ease your mind at all but watch his behavior carefully. Often these guys will fake remorse at first, like my friend did, but as soon as they think they are off the hook, they will slowly start making excuses or let the anger seep out that they were expected to bear any responsibility for their actions at all. He may, on the other hand, deny everything. Then it is up to you to make a judgement call.
Despite the propaganda, there is not really much profit anyone gets out of making a "false rape claim". Usually you lose family, friends, get no justice and no restitution. There is no reason to do it unless it really happened and you need people to know; or you have severe mental issues.

It's also worth remembering that crazy, nightmarish, manipulative, lying and difficult people can get raped too, so 'character' isn't necessarily an indicator of who is telling the truth.

It is all in the attitudes. Like Oldermum says - it sort of seeps out - they buy into rape myths.

Often these guys will fake remorse at first, like my friend did, but as soon as they think they are off the hook, they will slowly start making excuses or let the anger seep out that they were expected to bear any responsibility for their actions at all.
Good point
Despite the propaganda, there is not really much profit anyone gets out of making a "false rape claim". Usually you lose family, friends, get no justice and no restitution. There is no reason to do it unless it really happened and you need people to know; or you have severe mental issues.
Also a good point.
The chances of it being true are higher (from what we know in terms of statistics) than the chances of it being made up out of malice.
As for the OP, An old friend has been accused of raping his boyfriend many years ago. Personally I'd do one of two things. Cut him out completely, or choose not to believe it and not mention it again. Anything else wouldnt seem genuine. The chances are it did happen, and he has played it down in his mind as a bad shag, especially as they stayed together for.skme time after it happened. But for the ex-partner, he might have only come to terms with what happened now.
Being cautiously supportive of the accused isn't really being supportive at all, IMO. If I were him I'd feel like you were hedging your bets with me, you either believe I didn't rape my boyfriend or that I probably did.
Sorry if that's a bit harsh, there's obviously some chance it is a malicious lie but that is far less likely than the other obvious answer. The fact you feel uneasy looks to me like you probably, on balance, believe the ex-partner and are not sure what to do with an old friend who is a likely-but-not-proven rapist.

It's also worth remembering that crazy, nightmarish, manipulative, lying and difficult people can get raped too, so 'character' isn't necessarily an indicator of who is telling the truth.
Exactly. OP might like the accused a whole lot more than she likes his ex but unless she believes that the ex would really make it up (and that's a hard thing to truly believe) then she knows what is likely to have happened.

Is there any reason why the ex-partner isn't pursuing a prosecution?

Yes, there's absolutely no point in reporting. Most rapes are NFA'd and even those that aren't rarely make it to court. So, conviction rates based on numbers of cases in court are, bluntly, bullshit. I wouldn't encourage anyone to report sexual violence.

Both WeRiseUp and OlderMum are also wise.

We know that the likelihood is that he is a rapist, both of this ex and all others

Do we? I don't think so.

You don't seem to be giving any consideration as to whether or not the story is true. ...The ex- boyfriend went on to marry the person they are accusing of rape- after the rape happened and is now wanting to accuse your friend but not in any formal way.

I think keeping an open mind is exactly the right thing to do here, likely over time more info will come out and then OP can draw her own conclusions based on more facts.

I have withdrawn friendship from a man accused of DV by more than one previous partner, other friends have stayed friends and think he just picks the wrong women. None of us are judges, we can only do what we think is right for us based on the facts available.