"My identical twin sister became my brother – and now we’re closer than ever"

[QuietContraryMary]

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-6720539/Identical-twin-undergoes-gender-transition-siblings-bond-stronger.html

'As children, identical twins Rachel and Beth Oliver were understandably close, but their shared sense of feeling 'different' strengthened their bond even further.

The pair, now 25, from Wakefield, West Yorkshire, felt ‘different’ to other girls and behaved like tomboys'

'As teens they both came out as lesbian and at the age of 16, Rachel began identifying as a man, and became Ollie.'

'The twins both came out as lesbian as teenagers and at 16 Ollie told his sister he identified as a man. Beth was by his side as he started to transition, even helping to bind her brother’s breasts. '

'Ollie is now engaged to Martha Ward, 27, pictured together and is looking forward to a surgery to remove his breasts.'

''We’re very close as siblings. We were identical twins. Fundamentally we’re still identical, but I just look different and sound different now.''

'Martha said: 'I knew Oliver was trans when we started dating. I identify as straight anyway and I have only ever and do see him as a man. I still identify as straight. '

'Ollie is now on the waiting list for surgery to remove his breasts - and believes that getting to run around outside topless in hot weather will be the ‘best feeling’.'

Slightly confusing really, they were identical twin lesbians but now one of them's a straight man but they haven't stopped being identical apart from the testosterone and the breast removal surgery, which is great because Martha is 100% straight.

Running around topless with those dreadful scars? Not a good reason to have your breasts removed.

If you really want to run around topless, you can. Its not socially approved of, but I bet showing off your scars will not be either.

But if they’re identical twins, surely they have the same identical man brains?

If they're identical twins that means everything biological is identical, right? That's why they use identical twins in biological studies and psychological studies (where they even used to be split up and raised separately from each other to assess nature vs. nurture) So if this has biological basis, biology making them 'trapped in the wrong body', 'assigned' female but always been male' etc. they both should be trans, right?

These identical twin girls did both decide to transition to being transmen after first coming out to each other as gay. I'm an identical twin myself so tend to notice stories about twins and what makes them the same or different for that matter.

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/transgender-twins-girl-boy-transition-jack-jace-grafe-monroe-georgia-a8597621.html

Things like this blow apart that TRA trope about the genetic or biological element to gender identity.

It will be useful in the furure to look at identical twins where one has transitioned, to see the long term impact on health from taking hormones.
There are a few of cases of male twins where one has adopted a MTF identity.

One side effect of taking T is that it can cause cancer, heart problems and other health issues. Males taking female hormones can develop osteoporosis, heart disease and other health issues. It is unethical to test the side effects of these medical pathways in real world situations so looking at twin studies will reveal much needed information.

I'm still shocked how casually doctors will prescribe drugs and surgery to young adults for what is essentially a fashion/lifestyle choice, especially when we have virtually no information regarding the long term health problems that could develop.

There was a tv programme about trans children a couple of years ago featuring twins (I think identical). It came across to me as the child desparate to be seen differently to their twin....

Then there is the Belgium footballer and his identical twin, who is trans (a dancer, featured in the film Girl????)

If there truly is a biological explanation for being transgender (in all cases), I'm very curious how it affects one twin and not the other?

Apparently twin studies show that being trans has a strong genetic component, more so than being gay.

Of course twin studies might also be demonstrating a strong social contagion component if social contagion between identical twins is higher than between non-identical twins.

(Also the twin study factoid came from a TRA. I didn’t bother to check it because it seens plausible and doesn’t prove much, but TRAs are notorious liars so it could be false.)

Hi, Martha from the article here. This is a fairly new account anyway so I don't need to NC

Right now I don't know a lot about the science, as well it just isn't there. And even if it was there, I wouldn't understand it. But here is what is there. There are many biological genetic factors as well as factors within the womb that affect twins too, such as exposure to different hormone levels especially if they have separate placentas and sacs. Science into this is still in its infancy, but there is bits tgerr. There are real differences between a female brain and a trans man brain, regardless of the twin thing, structures are different. The causes of that are as yet unknown but my partner's brain IS structurally different from his twin sisters brain. I'm still trying to educate myself but as I mentioned with the science in its infancy into twins, we can't make these leaps yet.

I don't really know what else to say on this now, and I know that my posting will likely change no minds in here on the validity of trans people.

Martha, here’s a link to help you educate yourself.

www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17352-8
It’s dense reading but very interesting when you power through it.

You’re welcome! Thanks for stopping by.

Hello Martha,

Welcome and thanks for posting.

They've got brain scans showing differences between your partners and their identical twins brains? That's going to be really interesting, will they be part of any academic study?

I have seen a small study (100 people) showing a difference between trans and non trans people's brains (not linked to an idea of male or female but different to both).

Identical twins - again.

West Yorkshire - again.

Validity of trans people 😁
Why is it so hard to understand nobody has an issue with trans people. The issue is pretending they are the same as women and denying women the right to define as a sex category
Did one twin hide behind the other during the testosterone wash😁
If trans is not social how do you account for the infant knowing instinctively what the norms are of their chosen gender given that they change over time and place?

my partner's brain IS structurally different from his twin sisters brain
They're identical twins...

I know that my posting will likely change no minds in here on the validity of trans people Okaay...

Martha if there are brain scans showing the difference that's great they would be very useful to researchers if they were allowed to study what makes some people trans

I still don't believe feeling you are a different sex magically transforms you into being the other sex and I've seen no scientific proof put forward for that hypothesis. Just as I don't believe having a hysterectomy turned me into a man.

Identical twins share a placenta. Monochorionic. They can’t have been exposed to different hormone levels. And how do you know their brains are structurally different? Under what research project have they undergone detailed imaging to determine this? Which parts are structurally different?

Tarnlass91
I don't really know what else to say on this now, and I know that my posting will likely change no minds in here on the validity of trans people.

Hi Martha, thanks for posting. Congratulations on your engagement. I hope that you and Oliver will be really happy. I certainly have no doubts about the validity of trans people and I don’t think anyone else who posts here does either. Like you, we are trying to understand the science in terms of genetic factors and social ones like socialisation into gender roles. There are some amazing posters here with excellent scientific knowledge. Some of the ‘science’ presented (eg we are all clownfish) can be frustrating. Comments here are sometimes read as criticism of those arguing for bad science, instead of criticism of a belief which is not backed up by evidence. Anyway, all the best to you Ollie and Beth.

Right now I don't know a lot about the science, as well it just isn't there. And even if it was there, I wouldn't understand it

On this basis, do you really feel that you are giving informed consent to medial procedures you may be undertaking?

There are real differences between a female brain and a trans man brain, regardless of the twin thing, structures are different. The causes of that are as yet unknown but my partner's brain IS structurally different from his twin sisters brain.

Hi Martha, thank you for coming on to this thread.

Could you please cite your sources for your above claims?

On this basis, do you really feel that you are giving informed consent to medial procedures you may be undertaking?

The poster is the fiancée of the transman, I think. However, I'd have thought that she'd be reasonably up to speed with whatever her fiancé knows, and as she says I don't know a lot about the science, as well it just isn't there.

Erol

Ah my mistake. Still a little concerned at the dismissal of the sciencey stuff, as while I wouldn't expect the patient or their family to be doctor level, I'd have thought that undertaking or supporting someone taking a drastically life altering procedure would prompt a lot more investigation and research that just 'I'll never understand it".

Science says -
All brains are different.
A mosaic of different characteristics.

Put 100 brains in front of neuroscientists and they cannot distinguish the sex of those brains.

That is the current science.

No male brain, no female brain - just deeply held social expectations that people will behave in stereotypical ways pertaining to their sex.