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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Fascinating description of the problem

29 replies

AltogetherAndrews · 16/02/2019 20:07

pin.it/b3dpsa3wi4d5lb

Found this on Pinterest of all places, and found it an interesting take on the problem with trans ideology.

Will copy and paste it if I can.

OP posts:
AltogetherAndrews · 16/02/2019 20:30

Bump

OP posts:
SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 16/02/2019 20:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

YouCantTourniquetTheTaint · 16/02/2019 20:34

Its just a pintrest liknk and yes, thats it. Thats absolutely it.

TurboTeddy · 16/02/2019 20:41

Is this the one? The comments about make privilege struck a cord. I was also distracted by another item on the same page where it appeared that women were being referred to as "birthers", how long has this been happening, it's a new one on me.

Fascinating description of the problem
TurboTeddy · 16/02/2019 20:47

Sorry don't seem able to resize it to make the image clearer.

BitOfFun · 16/02/2019 21:03

Brilliantly put.

OldCrone · 16/02/2019 21:12

Not sure if this link will work. I managed to enlarge it by clicking on the image.

i.pinimg.com/originals/3d/a2/7c/3da27ce9f93330cca0f9130d7c79ed39.jpg

chaoticgood · 16/02/2019 21:27

Men rape men too, though. And a male person I know who had lived for decades without feeling any threat of male violence, started wearing dresses etc and giving off vibes that they wanted to be treated as a woman, and lo and behold they soon got raped.

So it's just not as clear cut as "males rape females".

BitOfFun · 16/02/2019 21:36

It is men who rape. That is pretty clear cut.

chaoticgood · 16/02/2019 21:45

Of course it is clear cut that men do the raping.

But the screenshot seems to be saying that only woman are rapeable.

userschmoozer · 16/02/2019 21:45

“If gender was performance, then there would be a way to perform that didn’t result in rape for women. But men rape housewives. Men rape butch lesbians. Men rape quiet women in dresses and lipstick. Men rape snarling punks in leather jackets and safety pins. Men rape every type of woman.

There is no way for a woman to be that doesn't risk rape. There is no way to perform that lets women escape the confines of gender because gender is not performance; it’s the designator of who can rape - us, the people called men - and who can be raped - them, the people called women.
Performance has nothing to do with it. When gender is a violent, unnatural hierarchy we are born into, the abuse of females is understood as a brutal result of a power structure that subjugates one class of people to another.
When gender is an internal, subjective choice we make, the abuse of females becomes a hazard of identification, a set of circumstances implicitly welcomed by anyone who puts on a particular performance - or even an “affirmation of femininity”, in the words of a particularly noxious figure in the trans community.
Conversely, linking the massive privilege bestowed on men to an internal state erases the structural and political institutions that give power to males at the expense of females - and, shockingly, the ideology that does this is being largely pushed by males with the hopes of gaining access to female spaces, female resources, and female identities.
This should be troubling to anyone who seeks to challenge actual, real male supremacy - not male-identified supremacy, not cis-male
supremacy, not person-with-this-certain-set-of-feelings supremacy.
Male supremacy. You know, the violence men do, to women, because we can.
The heart of gender performativity as a concept is a twin project of blaming victims and excusing perpetrators. By obscuring the brutality of our sex-caste system in a postmodern mist that privileges the internal identifications of men - the oppressors - over the material conditions of women - the oppressed - any attempt to throw the strongholds of patriarchy into focus is immediately neutralized.
On queer theory, men win, Women lose. What a surprise.”

Huff in “Gender Performativity’ is Victim Blaming”

chaoticgood · 16/02/2019 21:59

To flesh out my objection: he is saying males rape females, whereas I think it's more that men rape (overwhemingly) females but also other men who they consider to be feminine, (feminised, effeminate), or they feminise other men by raping them, as a show of dominance. There is indeed no way for a woman to perform her way out of the rapable category. But a man can perform his way into it, or be forced in by other men who perceive of him as being in it. So performance does play a part.

userschmoozer · 16/02/2019 22:07

You are having a different conversation from the one on this thread; do feel free to start your own thread about how men treat other men.

Kettleon80 · 16/02/2019 22:17

This this this.

Why do we always have to have the 'but men get raped too' argument. That means fuck all. We are talking about the large majority which is women.

The fact is 99.9% of the time men rape, and even when women sexually assault and abuse quite often there is a controlling man behind her.

Why does it always have to be steered towards the 'whataboutteries'??

chaoticgood · 16/02/2019 22:24

Why do you think I'm having a different conversation? I'm focusing directly on this statement in the OP:

[gender is] the designator of who can rape - us, the people called men - and who can be raped - them, the people called women.

I agree with the rest of the OP, but not that bit. Surely that's exactly what the thread is for - discussing the analysis of gender set out in the OP?

chaoticgood · 16/02/2019 22:34

I'll be off after this (at least until a pp turns up who understands where I'm coming from) but (as I've said) of course it's overwhelmingly women who are raped - yes we are the vast majority

But the OP is an analysis of gender, it's not just about practicalities, it's about the concept. That's the context I'm discussing it in.

I wish you would not all jump to conclusions about where I'm coming from, as you have misunderstood completely. I do understand and can't really blame you because we are all used to whattaboutery. This isn't that, though.

AltogetherAndrews · 16/02/2019 23:15

I think I see what you are trying to say, that if we say that we cannot identify out of the catagory of those who are raped, then we should not be able to identify into it either, but the fact that men are raped suggests that it can be identified into, which damages the arguement that performance is irrelevant.

I’m not sure I agree with you, I need to have a think and get it straight in my head.

OP posts:
MargueritaPink · 16/02/2019 23:29

Personally I think the whole article is a huge pile of self- satisfied, "look at me I'm so clever", word salad nonsense.

There is no way for a woman to be that doesn't risk rape. There is no way to perform that lets women escape the confines of gender because gender is not performance; it’s the designator of who can rape - us, the people called men - and who can be raped - them, the people called women

The author seems to have no understanding that sex and gender are different. It is women's biological sex which puts them at risk of rape.

failingatlife · 16/02/2019 23:32

I totally agree with the Pinterest pis. I know of 2 very elderly women who were raped in their own homes by young . 2 totally separate instances decade's apart in my small home town. Rape is about power not desire.

failingatlife · 16/02/2019 23:33

postnot pis

chaoticgood · 17/02/2019 00:12

but the fact that men are raped suggests that it can be identified into

Yes - that it can either be identified into by a man presenting / behaving "feminine", or a man can be forcibly identified into it by another man who rapes him, thus feminising (subjugating) him.

Maleness and femaleness are just biology but masculinity and femininity are about power. The class of subordinates (of less-than-men, "non-men" you could call it!) is wider than the class of women. Women are forced into the non-men class as a matter of course, and it's taken as natural. But rape of men is obviously about power and not biology so it is useful for delineating the concepts.

It's related to how men just assume that penetration is an act of power - the primordial act of power - over another person. A man who enjoys being penetrated is seen as submissive or even masochistic. I believe that a woman who enjoys being penetrated is seen (by men) as no less submissive, but it just isn't remarked upon, because femininity, which gets confused with femaleness, just is submissive. I've heard many times (from men) that "there is more porn about women dominating men than men dominating women". This is so patently false, it must be that men are looking straight at the male-dom power-play porn that comprises 99.999999% of the mainstream and not seeing it. They don't see it as domination, it's just sex, because sex with a woman is already domination anyway.

ALittleBitofVitriol · 17/02/2019 00:40

When men rape men, it is still enacting the gender hierarchy. The very reason of dominance is because there is a hierarchy, there couldn't be dominance without people to dominate.
Males who are victims of rape aren't performing femininity, however they are being dominated by the same people at the top of the hierarchy - because being dominated as if they are of the class made for domination is the point, the extra shame is a punishment for not performing their gender (male = dominator) correctly.

I'm not sure if that's clear. The class reasons for who is victimized are different, I think. It's no less a horror.

I really liked this quote.

lunamoth581 · 17/02/2019 04:54

I looked for the whole article this quote was taken from; the blog it is from doesn’t seem to exist anymore. I did find this reblog from
Anti-Porn Feminists:

www.google.com/amp/s/antipornfeminists.wordpress.com/2014/08/19/gender-performativity-is-victim-blaming/amp/

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 17/02/2019 09:44

The asymmetry is because patriarchy defines us not as men and women but as men and not-men.

OlennasWimple · 17/02/2019 11:00

chaoticgood - I know what you mean.

The asymmetry is because patriarchy defines us not as men and women but as men and not-men.

I agree with this, completely. (And as an aside, it's why men are happy to see TWAW, because TW have moved into the "not men" category)

It's obviously anecdote not data, but the man I know that was raped by a stranger has obvious learning disabilities. That is, he is regarded as "not man" by alpha male types - which made him vulnerable