Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Dr James Miranda Barry

123 replies

mammoon · 14/02/2019 21:25

Never posted a thread before so apologies if I'm doing it wrong! Anyway, I thought this was of interest. A new book about Dr Barry is causing a meltdown on Twitter - twitter.com/EJLevy/status/1095759928667516928 . As far as I can see, all the books about Dr Barry consistently refer to them as a woman, but this latest book, unlike others, is being called transphobic, and the author and publisher are "cancelled".

OP posts:
DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 19/02/2019 03:25

That’s fascinating Otepoti. The Langley woman sounds like a book waiting to be written!

There were probably many more women we know nothing about, who chose a male appearance to grasp freedoms, education, opportunities and adventures that weren’t afforded to women.

Men were paid more than women, got education and the good jobs and moved freely through the world. I’m sure many active women saw wearing trousers as the key to a wider world.

There were certainly women who embraced adventure in skirts - such as Isabella Bird - but that required a certain access to resources and opportunity.

I believe it’s why so many young girls are turning to the trans narrative currently. They too want to move freely in the world without the oppressive gaze of men and the equally oppressive expectations of feminine representation.

OtepotiLilliane42 · 19/02/2019 06:03

Couldn't agree more with your last paragraph DancelikeEmmaGoldman, but a counter narrative for young girls faces so much opposition from the likes of Mermaids that it seems almost hopeless. It's good that some in the medical profession are speaking out now, but it should have started much sooner, and far more robustly.

Anyway, back to these fascinating women. Absolutely 'Henry Langley' deserves to her have her story told, and I find myself intrigued by 'Charley' too, with her three 'marriages'. To live with another woman for twenty five years as a man - I would dearly like to know the background there.There are many more stories I found in Papers Past of women passing as men, in the toughest of circumstances, sometimes to look after families, but some because of the freedom it gave them to travel, and experience the wider world in a way impossible otherwise. What courage they must have possessed!

DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 19/02/2019 06:11

From Australia there is the fascinating and tragic story of Eugenia Fellini.

theconversation.com/friday-essay-tall-ships-tall-tales-and-the-mysteries-of-eugenia-falleni-81170

Dr James Miranda Barry
OtepotiLilliane42 · 19/02/2019 06:32

Well goodness, that is such an interesting article, and such an honest one from Pip Smith in terms of navigating (no pun intended) the perils of being true to Eugenia Falleni's dual experience of female and male. And isn't that face haunting - no wonder Pip Smith wanted to tell the owner's story.

Iamanaubergine · 19/02/2019 15:44

Segment on Radio 4’s Making History about James Barry. V interesting and full of he/she confusion but seems to definitely note that Barry was a woman and didn’t really ‘pass’ as a man.

Melroses · 19/02/2019 15:50

It was all very interesting, but they had to get the transgender line in the discussion at the end though Hmm

AbsintheFriends · 19/02/2019 17:08

I came here to add that about the R4 discussion earlier - it was all going well until someone actually said 'Now we understand that there are people who are born in female bodies but with male minds, and we call those people transmen.'

Do we??? I certainly don't understand that. I don't understand what a male mind is. A scientific one, presumably 🙄

OtepotiLilliane42 · 21/02/2019 03:06

Another story of a woman who lived as a man, Wilhemena 'Bill' Smith. In this case it was so that she could race as a jockey. She was orphaned at an early age, and ran away from the orphanage she was sent to, probably because she could see a life as a domestic servant stretching out in front of her. Instead she had a successful career, managing to allay suspicions as to her true sex by never changing before the other jockeys, and outwitting them when they tried to spy on her in the shower. There is one photograph of 'Bill' in her silks, with an account of a retired jockey who raced against 'Bill' in the 1950s. I find it very touching that the hospital to which she was admitted when she was ill protected her identity.

mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-23/australias-first-female-jockey-who-lived-her-whole-life-as-a-man/9786822?pfmredir=sm&sf190137293=1&smid=Page

Illyria47 · 21/02/2019 06:58

I must admit to wondering about how women living as men coped with their periods. It is difficult to know how many women really wished to be men and those who saw donning men's clothing as giving them the freedom to do as they wished.
I have read about Isabella Bird. An intrepid traveller.

GrumpyGran8 · 21/02/2019 14:15

I must admit to wondering about how women living as men coped with their periods.

I've often wondered about that myself, especially about the women who went to sea or joined the military, where there was very little privacy. They could have done their toilet business by nipping behind a bush or something (or even constructing something like a Shewee?), but hiding bloodied clothes/rags would have been nigh on impossible.
I can only think that perhaps a combination of poor diet and lots of phyysical labour led to them having very light - or non-existent - periods.

mammoon · 26/02/2019 18:23

ICYMI www.spiked-online.com/2019/02/25/stop-this-trans-washing-of-history/

OP posts:
InionEile · 26/02/2019 19:34

The rewriting of history by trans activists is infuriating. How can we sensibly refer to James Miranda Barry as 'he'? Gender neutral pronouns should be used at the most. Using 'he' completely erases the complexity of their story as someone who was born female and lived most of their life as a male. It also erases the real stories of the oppression of women in the past, denied most opportunities for education and earning their own money.

You just can't look back at people like Barry and see it through a trans lens. It's anachronistic. As someone who has a degree in history, one of the most important things about writing history is making sure you do not come at the evidence with modern eyes. You have to place history in context or it is meaningless.

Illyria47 · 26/02/2019 20:16

Absolutely agree InionEile

mammoon · 26/02/2019 21:30

Little, Brown have released a statement but TRAs are still not happy. I cannot believe the absolute hysteria over this. Have these people got nothing better to do but trash talk women on twitter?

twitter.com/littlebrown/status/1100453326431416321

OP posts:
InionEile · 26/02/2019 23:50

The responses to that statement from Little Brown are ridiculous.

"If you’ve actually been reading the conversations her transphobia have sparked—and the vicious way she’s responded—you couldn’t, in good faith, publish this book."

Right. Let's not publish the book because she used a pronoun that she thought to be appropriate, based on her extensive research of Barry. Ok.

I mean how sensitive are these woke Twitter hangers-on? You can't even publish a work of fiction now?

Man, if only feminists could ban from publication any work of fiction that insulted or demeaned women. Holy crap, we would have our work cut out for us. The literary canon would be decimated.

DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 27/02/2019 00:47

There are people who believe the British royal family are actually shape-shifting lizards and promulgate the idea all over the shop. You don’t see the Royals trying to stop publication on the grounds that it’s erasing their humanity.

It’s a deeper problem than the trans narrative I think. Perhaps our identities are now so amorphous, based as they are, in the shifting sands of social media, that it’s only by policing those unseen boundaries, that our personalities don’t disintegrate like a badly-tuned TV.

Was it Lacan who characterised individuality as a shifting intersection of cultures - that there is no real “I”, only a fiction constructed of competing narratives.

This idea that you can only exist if others constantly validate your being, even if they’ve been dead 200 years, is the ultimate post-modern expression of existence.

But that makes an awful sense if you are forced, (or choose), to live in a way which is in denial of material reality. That construction will depend on external acceptance and validation because their is no congruence between feelings and reality. Which is kind of the definition of mental illness I suppose.

This is Martha Jane Canary, the original Calamity Jane, who worked as a tracker and scout, wore men’s clothes and also married and bore children.

In the musical, Doris Day performed her own stunts, injuring herself in the process. Calamity Jane is not about a transwoman, it’s about a woman who makes her way in a man’s world through skill and personality. I’ve always thought it significant that at the end of the movie, she goes to the party in stereotypical female clothes, but she hangs onto her greatcoat.

Unlike those who want to convert her narrative, Calamity recognises that her outfits are only signifiers of social expectation, and she’s worked out that she can navigate those expectations, but remain herself.

You will only trans Doris Day and Calamity Jane by prying them out of my cold, dead hands.

Dr James Miranda Barry
mammoon · 27/02/2019 06:48

Man, if only feminists could ban from publication any work of fiction that insulted or demeaned women. Holy crap, we would have our work cut out for us. The literary canon would be decimated.

Holy shit. There'd be virtually nothing left.

This idea that you can only exist if others constantly validate your being, even if they’ve been dead 200 years, is the ultimate post-modern expression of existence.

It seems like an incredibly anxious and vulnerable way to be. Maybe that accounts for the extreme reactions to things like this. The people tweeting about this honestly seem completely unhinged to me. I really hope Little, Brown don't cave to them.

OP posts:
louiseaaa · 27/02/2019 07:15

How come there were no men who lived as women back in the day?

It's almost as if there was no point, as you got no privileges as a woman, back then.

nettie434 · 27/02/2019 07:48

Thanks OtipotiLilliane42 and DancelikeEmmaGoldman for those fascinating links. Agree about retrospectively deciding whether somebody was transgender, InionEile. What’s more, some of these women might have defined themselves as lesbian had they lived today.

mammoon · 27/02/2019 08:03

Some of you may know this - did Barry leave a will? It seems like a lot of people on twitter believe there is a will in which Barry states that they are male and a man and manly male macho man for now and all eternity. And feminists are saying, where is this will? Pics or it didn't happen.

Is there actually a will? If so, what does it say?

OP posts:
OtepotiLilliane42 · 27/02/2019 10:16

Thanks Nettie434 - I have used Papers Past for research purposes when I worked as an archivist, and it proved fruitful for uncovering the lives of women who succeeded as men in all sorts of occupations.

With regard to fictional lives of Dr Barry I found this very interesting1999 article on the author Patricia Duncker and her take on Dr Barry's life as a man. She used the male pronoun for Barry, because in her words:

I wanted to stop he/she being the determining factor." Duncker settled on 'he' because "Barry never lived as a woman. He never was a woman. The fact that Barry was a gender bender interested me. I think there are underworlds of gender. There are a lot of people who feel very unhappy in the roles ascribed to them." The answer is to expand what is possible.

www.theguardian.com/world/1999/may/31/gender.uk1

You wondered about men living as women louiseaaa. I certainly found plenty of references in Papers Past of young men being discovered in women's clothing but the reasons for their disguise remained unclear, and seemed to quite often lead to arrests. The particular incident reported below made me smile, given the current concerns about men being allowed into women's sports.

paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZH19211004.2.79?query=man%20masquerading%20as%20a%20woman&page=8&snippet=true

But there was the famous case of two young men in Victorian times, known as 'Fanny and 'Stella' who were arrested on suspicion of sodomy.
The previous evening the young men had been out on a particularly audacious "spree", camping it up in a private box at the Strand theatre and, most shocking of all, using the ladies' lavatories .
Stella and Fanny's outlandish appearance and mincing manners, though, were the least of their crimes. "Personating a woman" in public was merely a "misdemeanor" and might be dealt with by a fine and a good talking-to. What mattered, from the court's point of view, was whether penis and anus had ever met.

www.theguardian.com/books/2013/jan/25/fanny-stella-neil-mckenna-review

The young men are not convicted, partly due McKenna says to Boulton's mother:

Her genuine naivety on the witness stand went a long way towards getting the two young men released. That, and the fact that their prosecution was clearly a put-up job. If the English hated anything more than sodomy, it was a police force acting beyond its proper powers.

The last sentence of that paragraph rings a little hollow now.

I agree with the posters on this thread who are frustrated by the desire of some to read the lives of past women who chose to live as men through the prism of current gender ideology. It doesn't do justice to the rich complexity of their lives.

GrumpyGran8 · 27/02/2019 11:31

mammoon Barry apparently didn't leave a will. But a 2016 book called Dr James Barry: A Woman Ahead of Her Time (citing the The Medical Times and Gazette 1865) says she left verbal intructions that "in the event of his death, strict precautions should be adopted to prevent any examination of his person" and that the body should be "buried in [the] bed sheets without further inspection"
That's what the TRAs are quoting - no written instructions, just hearsay.
The revelation of her biological sex came from the charwoman who laid out the body. Barry would have known she was dying; it was the usual practice then for a female servant to lay out a body. So why didn't she leave written instructions with the doctor and long-time friend who had attended her for years?

mammoon · 28/02/2019 08:14

Thanks GrumpyGran. No surprise to hear the TRAs are just making shit up or repeating what they've heard with zero evidence.

You would think that if she was desperate to be known as a man for all eternity she would have made arrangements so that her sex would not be discovered on her death. What were these "strict precautions"?

I just can't get my head around people screaming about transphobia when trans did not exist then! She may have wanted to be a man but we can't know that. We don't know what she felt about her "gender" because "gender" would not have made any sense to her!

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page